Hi list, Thanks to everyone for the bass tuning suggestions~now I can fine tune my technique. Ahhhh...bad pun. Jon On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:07 AM, <pianotech-request at ptg.org> wrote: > Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to > pianotech at ptg.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pianotech-request at ptg.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pianotech-owner at ptg.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Sostenuto wars and tone of discourse (was: ...oh forget > it...) (Israel Stein ) > 2. Re: question for aural tuners (Allen Wright) > 3. Re: question for aural tuners (John Formsma) > 4. Re: [CAUT] Sostenuto wars and tone of discourse (Ron Nossaman) > 5. Chickering grand piano for sale (John Formsma) > 6. Re: Chickering grand piano for sale (JWyatt1492 at aol.com) > 7. Re: Rebushing (was Re: Transporting a Grand Action) (Matthew Todd) > 8. RE: A new vision <OT> (Garret Traylor) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: custos3 at comcast.net (Israel Stein ) > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:15:19 +0000 > Subject: Sostenuto wars and tone of discourse (was: ...oh forget it...) > Friday, July 18, 2008 11:00:44 AM Ron Nossaman wrote > > >>There are > >> issues to discuss here, and priorities to be balanced - so > >> there is no reason to dismiss those who disagree with you > >> as those who "accept the status quo of the Steinway > >> sostenuto system". There are good reasons for maintaining > >> them, from some perspectives. > > >Oh, you want perspective? How many Steinways are in concert > >situations in institutions, as opposed to those in less > >critical and less time constrained use in educational > >institutions, churches, and homes? > > I'll grant you homes. In all other institutional settings time constraints > are a > constant reality. I would rather not spend the time getting past the > sostenuto. > There is always triage going on - I would rather spend my time on things > that > actually improve the function of the piano rather than getting past > something > that is there purely for convenience in a rarely performed procedure. > > >So what would be the > >realistic usage percentage justification for the concert > >access story? > > Ah, Ron you should have been in politics - you are a master of framing. > There > are a lot more time-pressure type venues than just concerts. Ever try to > keep a > classroom or studio piano at a university in anything resembling acceptable > condition? Access is always an issue and when you do get access - you don't > have > a minute to spare. And the same goes for various professional venues. > > > >Also, if the action mounted sostenutos are kept > >for the concert techs, why are they on the Ms, the Os, the Ls? > > See above. > > >Are there many high pressure concert venues using Ms these > >days? Like most things Steinway, there seems to be a whole lot > >more emotional froth generated, than rational connections. > > And this is precisely why I berated you the way I did - you insist on > dismissing > those whose opinion differs from yours as engaging in some sort of Steinway > induced "froth". Steinways are problematic instruments in many ways - but > that > sostenuto is not one of the problems, in my opinion. Based on years of > experience. > > RN > >> >And being ignorant of the give and take of the formal > >> educational process, having acquired my apparently sub > >> standard education outside an institutional setting? > > IS > >>No. Just a lack of respect for approaches other than your > >> own... > > >You mean like you're showing me? > > Just returning the favor. Got tired of your dismissiveness of others (as > demonstrated above) and that tirade against formal education pushed me over > the > edge. > > RN > >> And being myopic in my inability to understand the value > >> of knowledge acquired from others in a give and take > >> instructor/student setting? > > IS > > I think your original message reeks of that attitude - > > where you dismiss knowledge acquired in institutional > > settings in a rather jaundiced peroration... I took it as > > an attack on all those who attempt to teach and learn in > > that manner - and tried to give you a taste of your own > > medicine. How does it feel to be painted with a broad > > brush? > > RN > >>I most typically am, by those that don't know me and make > >>emotionally based snap judgments from something they believe I > >>said. > > It's not what you say Ron - you are entitled to your opinion just like > everyone > els - it's how you say it. You can make your point without dismissing the > opinions of others as somehow being "froth" or - by imp[lication - noit > being > based on observation or experience. You don't have a monopoly on those... > > IS > >> That remark was aimed not at you personally - but at the > >> customary way in which an awful lot of technicians gain > >> their knowledge. Perhaps you only screwed up pianos for a > >> few months. Or perhaps you got it right on the first try - > >> I mean you are a pretty smart guy... Or did someone show > >> you how? > > RN > >You're joking, right? EVERYBODY showed me how, as well as how > >not. Are you actually under the delusion that everyone who > >didn't have institutional training from the beginning is > >operating in a total vacuum? > > Precisely the point I was trying to make about your tirade damning > academically > acquired knowledge as worthless. > "The fact is that anyone incapable of learning without being taught is > doomed to > run their programming forever because they'll never overcome their ! > education - > or rather someone else's education that was installed in them." Just as > preposterous a statement as the one of mine that you object to. > > RN > >You do seem to be of the impression that my opinions and ideas > >of how things work come to me in dreams, and I go into the > >world to shout it into compliance with my "vision". Not so. My > >current and ever changing opinion set is a distillation of > >ideas I've accumulated everywhere through the years, from > >everyone. Even from you, since I don't consider the validity > >of information to be dependent on it's source. > > And if you could accord the same courtesy to those who may disagree with > you - > that perhaps their opinions and approaches might just be a "distillation > of > ideas (they have) accumulated everywhere through the years, from > everyone" - rather than dismissing them as "froth" or in some other biting > remark that you are oh so good at (I do get an occasional chuckle) then > there > would be no problem... > > Israel Stein > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Allen Wright <akwright at btopenworld.com> > To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:38:21 +0100 > Subject: Re: question for aural tuners > Jon, > One of my favorite listening tests in the bass for consistency of octave > size on the way down is the beats that are created in the octave at the 10-5 > level, which are quite noticeable (especially in medium to small pianos). > They get pretty slow on larger grands, but still useable most of the way > down - even if it's just to see what side of the 10-5 you're on). The > contiguous partials that you'll hear beating are at the pitch of three > octaves and a third up from the bottom note of the octave; play that note > softly first in order to get the pitch fixed before you listen for it in the > octave, if you're unsure how to hear it. > > You can combine that with the m3-M6 test inside the octave (once you've > found an octave size that you like by the sound of it in terms of clarity > and tone) in order to start a pattern of slight descending beat speeds with > the 10-5 test. I hope that makes sense. Anything that helps you stick to > some sort of pattern that will give you consistent octave size on the way > down. > > Because that's what we're going for, isn't it? If one octave beats at, say > 2 bps at the 10-5 level, and then the next octave down is more expanded so > that it's beatless, then those two octaves sound quite different (because > all the other contiguous partials that have any activity are all beating at > different rates, so the quality of sound of those two octaves is quite > different). > > It's all partly a matter of choice and taste, but at least we should make > the choice consistent. I find those two tests the most useful for me in the > bass section on most pianos I tune. > > Good luck, > > Allen Wright > > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 2:55 PM, Michael Magness wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:09 AM, Willem Blees <wimblees at aol.com> wrote: > >> Jon >> >> A lot has to do with the quality of the piano. For good quality grands, I >> use the checks you do, or the two octave and a 7th. On less quality grands >> and most vertical pianos, I mostly listen to octaves and double octaves. >> >> Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT >> Piano Tuner/Technician >> Honolulu, HI >> 808-349-2943 >> www.bleespiano.com >> Author of >> The Business of Piano Tuning >> available from Potter Press >> www.pianotuning.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jonathan Golding <jgmdpiano at gmail.com> >> To: pianotech at ptg.org >> Sent: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 4:07 pm >> Subject: question for aural tuners >> >> When tuning the last octave of the piano's bass section I would like to >> know people's opinions on how they get the best results. For me, I find this >> a tricky area to get consistently good results. Some bass strings sound dead >> whereas others are harsh sounding and some have lots of overtones. As well, >> each piano seems to have a different amount of stretch to take into >> consideration. When tuning the last octave I usually check using the Maj >> 17th against the Maj 10th for approximate equal beating. When I play the >> octaves together harmonically I find that this leaves the last octave >> sounding too high to my ear. Any comments or suggestions? Any single partial >> for this area which could be helpful? >> Thanks, Jon >> ------------------------------ >> The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar >> Now <http://toolbar.aol.com/tmz/download.html?NCID=aolcmp00050000000014>! >> > > Hi Jon, > I have to agree with Willem that the quality will dictate which method > works best, I have also discovered since I began using them that earplugs > (20db) help cut down on some of the "garbage" allowing me to hear more > easily what I trained myself for over 35 years to find among that "garbage". > I use the maj 17th as a final check "walking" up the keyboard and listening > for that smooth progression of beat rates. When I find one that is faster or > slower I check it for tune and begin again. > > Mike > > -- > Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch > excellence. > Vince Lombardi > > Michael Magness > Magness Piano Service > 608-786-4404 > www.IFixPianos.com > email mike at ifixpianos.com > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "John Formsma" <formsma at gmail.com> > To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:09:36 -0500 > Subject: Re: question for aural tuners > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Jonathan Golding <jgmdpiano at gmail.com> > wrote: > >> When tuning the last octave of the piano's bass section I would like to >> know people's opinions on how they get the best results. For me, I find this >> a tricky area to get consistently good results. Some bass strings sound dead >> whereas others are harsh sounding and some have lots of overtones. As well, >> each piano seems to have a different amount of stretch to take into >> consideration. When tuning the last octave I usually check using the Maj >> 17th against the Maj 10th for approximate equal beating. When I play the >> octaves together harmonically I find that this leaves the last octave >> sounding too high to my ear. Any comments or suggestions? Any single partial >> for this area which could be helpful? >> >> > It should go without saying that the better your tuning in the midrange is, > the better it will be in the bass. > > Generally, I'd say (at first) listen to bass octaves at the 6:3 partials. > That at least gets you in the ball park. Rough it in, then refine, > right? (I tune the bass a tad wider than this on many pianos.) The more > you tune, the quicker you hear the right spot for that piano. And the fewer > tests that have to be done. > I'm finding 4ths and 5ths useful all the way down to the lowest octave. > They're helpful for roughing it in. You can also use the double octave and > octave-fifth to refine. E.g. C2-C4 and C2-G3. Get them to beat equally, > and you'll be fine. These are harder to hear in the low bass, but there are > other tests that can take over when this one is no longer useful. > > There is a point in the scale at which the 12:6 partials become prominent. > This can be tricky because it is the same pitch as the 6:3 partial except > an octave higher. As you're listening for the 6:3, the 12:6 call for your > attention. But tuning the 12:6 partials beatless is mainly only for the > concert grands. Just be careful of getting off track by tuning the 12:6 > beatless. > > To help against doing that, always be comparing double, triple, and > quadruple octaves. And listen quickly to the octave-fifth and double > octave-fifths. > > After the octaves sound good, like Wim said ... do the descending > double-octave and seventh. Or, the octave-seventh. I start at C2-A#3, and > go down, listening for even progression. Your mistakes will show up clearly > with this test. > > -- > JF > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net> > To: Pianotech <Pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:26:04 -0500 > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Sostenuto wars and tone of discourse > > > I'll grant you homes. In all other institutional settings > > time constraints are a constant reality. I would rather not > > spend the time getting past the sostenuto. > > Which is the real reason for all this, because you'd rather not spend the > time. > > > > Ah, Ron you should have been in politics - you are a master > > of framing. There are a lot more time-pressure type venues > > than just concerts. Ever try to keep a classroom or studio > > piano at a university in anything resembling acceptable > > condition? Access is always an issue and when you do get > > access - you don't have a minute to spare. And the same > > goes for various professional venues. > > Yes, I have and do, though not as an employee. There are, incidentally > venues other than schools. I'd bet that there are more pianos in churches > than in educational institutions, where time is obtainable by scheduling it. > Some will even turn on the air conditioning and stop vacuuming for you. > > > >> Also, if the action mounted sostenutos are kept for the > >> concert techs, why are they on the Ms, the Os, the Ls? > > > > See above. > > See above. > > > > And this is precisely why I berated you the way I did - you > > insist on dismissing those whose opinion differs from yours > > as engaging in some sort of Steinway induced "froth". > > Steinways are problematic instruments in many ways - but > > that sostenuto is not one of the problems, in my opinion. > > Based on years of experience. > > I'm talking information, you're talking personal vendetta, nearly as I can > tell. The change in subject line is a pretty good indication of your > position. > > --------------------------- > > > Precisely the point I was trying to make about your tirade > > damning academically acquired knowledge as worthless. "The > > fact is that anyone incapable of learning without being > > taught is doomed to run their programming forever because > > they'll never overcome their ! education - or rather > > someone else's education that was installed in them." Just > > as preposterous a statement as the one of mine that you > > object to. > > That was in response to the nonsense notion that people can't learn without > being taught, not a damning of academically acquired knowledge, which you > should know, having presumably read the posts and my previous > explanation(s). > > Well, it doesn't seem to matter what I say, as none of my points seem to > have any meaning for you, so I'll give up short of finding out what else > you'll have me saying that's convenient to you. > > Have a nice day, > Ron N > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "John Formsma" <formsma at gmail.com> > To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:34:06 -0500 > Subject: Chickering grand piano for sale > 7' 6" piano made around 1904. Soundboard is dead. I.e., very little volume > for what it should be. It appears to have been restrung at some point (the > owner thinks 30+ years ago before she purchased it.) > There is some finish damage, which is evident in the photos. > > It needs a complete restoration (obviously), although it is currently > usable (though not enjoyable). The tuning pins are on the loose side, but > it still holds a tuning OK. > > Photos are at http://gallery.me.com/jformsma.<http://gallery.me.com/jformsma> > (Single click on an image to enlarge it.) > > Owner will consider all offers. The piano truck can go with the piano or > separately (anyone ever buy those things used? I dunno.) > > Contact me directly with any offers or questions. My email address is > formsma at gmail.com > > -- > JF > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: JWyatt1492 at aol.com > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:32:16 EDT > Subject: Re: Chickering grand piano for sale > Hello , > > Is this a scale 123. and where is it.. > > Jack Wyatt > Dallas > > > > ------------------------------ > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy > Football today<http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> > . > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Matthew Todd <toddpianoworks at att.net> > To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:46:43 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: Rebushing (was Re: Transporting a Grand Action) > It is a Baldwin Grand. I do not have the clients info in front of me to > let you know more specs. > > I thing I am going to be addressing is the evenness throughout the > keyboard. Needs work. > > Other things about this piano need addressing later on, but I am here to > work with my clients budget. > > I apologize if my previous e-mail made it sound like I may not be sure what > I am doing. Besides, if I hired a mentor to come look at the situation, I > would need to put the added cost to the customers bill, and I had already > given him my quote :-). It was just a curious question, because I surely > would be the first to opt out of rebushing. > > > Thanks, > Matthew > > *J Patrick Draine <jpdraine at gmail.com>* wrote: > > Matthew, Could you tell us a bit more about the piano? Are the center pins > wandering right out of the flanges? Are flanges frozen? Is this a 10 year > old Samick or a 75 year old Aeolian stencil grand? How's everything else > about this piano? > And do you have a mentor you have can take a look at the action before you > get to work? > > Patrick Draine > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Matthew Todd <toddpianoworks at att.net> > wrote: > >> When you repin, when do you decide to rebush the flange as well. Unless, >> of course, you damage the bushing during repinning, how do you decide to >> rebush the entire set? >> >> >> Matthew > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Garret Traylor" <hpp at highpointpiano.com> > To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:07:22 -0400 > Subject: RE: A new vision <OT> > > As Wim said, give your old glasses to the Loins Club International; your > local optician can probably take them for you on their behalf. The Lions > Club is a great organization, if ya'll are not too busy working on pianos, > look up one of the local clubs. It is very rewarding organization to join > and get involved with. > > Kindest Regards, > > Garret > > --- > > > > *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] *On > Behalf Of *Willem Blees > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2008 1:28 PM > *To:* rrg at unlv.nevada.edu; pianotech at ptg.org > *Subject:* Re: A new vision <OT> > > > > Rob > > My son and daughter in law have had lasik surgery, and love it. His boss, > unfortunately, had a very bad experiment, and has never been able to see > right. But that was 15 years ago. I am sure they've perfected the surgery. > > As far as what to do with your glasses. the Lions Club used to take used > glasses and give them to those who can't afford new ones. I don't know if > they still do that, however, but it might be worth looking into. Other wise, > maybe you can paint them black, and stand on a street corner with a tin cup. > > > Wim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob & Helen Goodale <rrg at unlv.nevada.edu> > To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 6:13 am > Subject: A new vision <OT> > > <Off Topic> > > > > Well I finally decided to do it. After 20 years of wearing glasses I'm > getting LASIK surgery on my eyes. Yesterday I went in for the complete > pre-op exam and today at 11:00 I have the actual procedure. They tell me > that the time in the chair is 10 minutes total but the actual physical work > is only about one minute per eye. Pretty amazing stuff. It's all done with > what they call a "cool laser". They completely numb your eyes with some > drops and you don't feel a thing. About six hours of blurry vision, and by > the next day you see better then you ever actually did with the glasses. > > > > Well, I'll let you know how it all comes out. In the meantime I'm trying > to think of a ceremonial way to dispose of the glasses. Maybe I'll drop a > piano on them. I've already repaired them multiple times with CA glue. > > > > Rob Goodale, RPT > Las Vegas, NV > ------------------------------ > > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar > Now <http://toolbar.aol.com/tmz/download.html?NCID=aolcmp00050000000014>! > > _______________________________________________ > Pianotech list info https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/20080719/bf330925/attachment-0001.html
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