It seems to me you wait to see what exactly is going to be in the proposal. Piano tuning, repairing, etc. is probably not even in their minds...I'd leave it that way... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 Original message From: "Kendall Ross Bean" To: Received: 11/19/2008 1:16:56 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair Whoever said pianos were furniture? ;-) (Perhaps if one wanted to be on the safe side one could hedge one's bets and set aside (or collect) half the tax, since some apparently consider pianos both furniture AND musical instrument!) Maybe PSO's could command a higher percentage of repair tax, Steinways almost nothing... Let's propose, like Solomon, to divide the child, and see who really cares about it the most... ;-) . As an interested party, I agree with both Conrad, and David Ilvedson. I don't think we repair furniture, but musical instruments. Is a pipe organ a piece of furniture? How about some other large instruments, such as harps (very ornate), or orchestrions? Or marimbas, tympani, or pedal guitars? How about a guitar? A trumpet or an autoharp? Where do you draw the line? I guess a lot could depend on how you use it. In that case, as Conrad implies, PSO's could be furniture. Really, I agree with Paul Bruesch, that someone should check it out and find out what's what before we get into endless speculation or start anticipating/dreading the worst case scenario. Does Randy Potter have a point that we are "Musical Instrument Repair" --as opposed to "Furniture repair"? Is that a federal guideline that could trump a state guideline? Is that possible? For example, if you asked someone at the tax office if musical instruments were furniture, they might initially think of a trumpet and say no. But then, like us, they might think of a piano and wonder if they should say yes. Or they might draw a line somewhere. Like I say, I think you would be hard pressed to consider a trumpet or a guitar furniture. And what about electronic keyboards? Is a Casio portable keyboard furniture? I think not. So what is it that makes a piano furniture, if it is? By the way, if you contact the IRS or the California State Board of Equalization (I've always wondered why that name/euphemism for a tax collection agency), it's not enough to get an oral response or determination. It has to be in writing. Employees might say anything that can be later disavowed by their supervisors. I guess we need to find out what the State of California defines as furniture for tax purposes. (And then, as an interested party/organization, get an exception: if they aren't already, we need to legislate to get pianos defined as musical instruments, and not furniture! ;-) ) Often, to avoid having to spend time and money quibbling about fine lines (the Casio portable keyboard vs. the Steinway in the living room) government agencies will make a blanket determination and simply say, "okay, all pianos are musical instruments." -Especially if there is not that much potential tax income from us piano people for them to have to spend time and money collecting anyway. There are so many other possible loopholes. Is tuning considered repair? What about if you repair the musical portion but not the cosmetic portion of the instrument? If you clean the keys on a piano, are you repairing it? The law relies on definitions. Of course, the law also seems to reserve the right to define things (according to interested parties and their needs). We are an interested party, so we should also have the right to define things. And at a certain point, its up to the courts, if people can't agree on definitions. ~Kendall Ross Bean PianoFinders (David Ilvedson wrote:) I don't fix furniture...so it must not apply to me... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 (Conrad H. wrote:) Hmmmmmmmm A PSO tax? "Yes, Ma'am. I have to add the furniture repair tax to the tuning of your Grand/Winter/Gulbransen, etc. Spinet." ;-} -- anOn From: David Love [mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:27 PM To: 'David Ilvedson'; pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair There is a potential liability to that approach. If the tax applies you may be held liable for the amounts you should have collected. The law isn’t that forgiving about ignorance. Of course, if you are never audited, it isn’t an issue. If you are, you may be out a significant chunk of change. From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:12 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair I think it behooves us to ignore this proposal until someone from the State concretely says to charge the sales tax on piano service... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 Original message From: "David Love" To: Received: 11/18/2008 4:23:42 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair I hope you are right. I’ll try and check into it. From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of paul bruesch Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:07 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair Not to add to all the speculation here.... but I recall something from Randy Potter's seminar about our being "Musical Instrument Repair" (as opposed to "furniture repair") people. Of course, this was a federal thing, and I don't recall any more specifically what we were discussing at the time. Besides, we're all just guessing here... I really feel that someone in CA should probably contact an accountant, CPA, or tax attorney for a somewhat more definitive answer. Paul Bruesch Stillwater, MN On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> wrote: I believe pianos do fall under furniture repair. From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:11 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair Broadening the Sales and Use Tax to Include Certain Services: Effective February 1, 2009, the sales and use tax rate will be applied to appliance and furniture repair, vehicle repair, golf, and veterinarian services. Effective March 1, 2009, the sales and use tax rate will be applied to amusement parks and sporting events. This is expected to generate additional General Fund sales tax revenue of $357 million in 2008-09. David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 Original message From: "David Love" To: Received: 11/18/2008 8:11:51 AM Subject: [pianotech] Proposed California Sales Tax on Furniture Repair California techs. Does anyone know if the current proposal by our governator to impose sales tax on furniture repair include us? 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