Jeff- I think the complex analysis of multiple partial beating may yield something new. Perhaps, on certain pianos, the right phase relationships can produce a kind of noise cancelation? Add to that that we have no way of knowing (to my knowledge) how much of what we hear is the "real" or "objective" sound and how much may be "psycho-acoustic" (for example, an interactive mix of "difference tones" and "real" tones). And of course we talk as if there were only one piano and one octave, when the real variety is almost incalculable. I've seen one demonstration where it seemed that voicing one hammer made a clean octave beat, then voicing the other hammer cleaned it again. (Haven't been able to get that fellow to repeat his demonstration!) Kent's PureSound tuning on the 7' Hailun sounded very compelling, but there was little time to test and no real chance to compare with anything else. Kent laboriously tuned all unisons with the PureSound program. They were the cleanest unisons I've ever heard. How can I account for what that may have done? Currently I'm exploring the advantages of aural tuing with 12ths and 19ths, and I find it the best aural tuning method for me, anyway. Let me have a year to work on it! When I demonstrated aural tuning using 12ths and 19ths to an older chapter member last night, he said that an early version of the Accutuner had a "hard wired" generic temperament which was extended into the bass using 6th and 12th partials of the bass notes. I'm not familiar with this, but imagine the PureSound program uses a generic temperament, perhaps a bit higher than an aural temperament, and that it extends it using some form or weighted average, probably on a sliding scale to smooth the transition from 6th to 12th partials. Ed [I regret my math skills are so limited] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Deutschle" <oaronshoulder at gmail.com> To: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com>; <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Aurally pure octaves Ed: Thank you for the reply. I know the 3:1 test that you mention and also a 6:2 test for beatless 12ths, but Mr. Stopper has repeated many times that his 12ths are not beatless but at a “sweet spot”. I am hoping to learn what the aural tests for this “sweet spot” are. I’ve been playing with octaves that have equal beating 4:2 and 6:3 partials which result in an inherent 2:1 beat; meaning that the iH of the piano inherently requires a certain beat rate of the wide 2:1 partials when the wide 4:2 partials beat at the same speed as the narrow 6:3 partials. My biggest problem is that I tune few pianos that have a clear enough tone to ghost the partials (the RBI tests aren’t accurate enough for this) and have a pinblock capable of a very fine tuning. If I like the sound, I hope to be able to hear it directly and tune it without ghosting or first finding this inherent beat rate first by ghosting. Of course this inherent beat rate will not be the same for all octaves. On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com> wrote: > Who can question words like "Pure" and "Natural?" > ["I tune impure octaves by listening to unnatural beats."] > > I'd like a simple, carefully crafted demonstration where several people > tune > their favorite octaves on a variety of pianos (A2-A3-A4-A5), and we record > and measure the tunings. > > Then we might find out something specific that we can name and reproduce. > > Ed S. > > Jeff- > To check a pure 12th, use the use the M6-M17 test, thus, for example: > F3-D4=F3-A5. The beat of the sixth is very clear, and the seventeen should > beat the same. > ES > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Deutschle" > <oaronshoulder at gmail.com> > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 7:33 AM > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Aurally pure octaves > > > Kent: > > What are the "associated aural checks" for PureTuner? I continue to > wait for Mr. Stopper's explanation. > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Kent Swafford <kswafford at gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Hey, this could be good. How about if you come in and do a tuning >> concert? >> (Don't know what piano we'll have.) And then as time allows I can break >> out >> 'PureTuner and its associated aural checks. >> >> I know I will learn much; I can't wait. >> >> Kent >> >> >> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:42 PM, David Andersen wrote: >> >>> >>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Kent Swafford wrote: >>> >>>> I came away more convinced than ever that whole sound tunings and >>>> OnlyPure Tuner tunings are chasing after the same muse. I must say at >>>> this >>>> point that I think whole sound tuners can learn much and bring more >>>> reliable >>>> results by incorporating 'PureTuner techniques. >>>> >>>> Care to compare notes at Pianotech Live in Grand Rapids? 8^) >>> >>> Absolutamente, mi amigo. My mind is open and humbly excited to learn.... >>> >>> DA >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Regards, > Jeff Deutschle > > Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. Thank You. > > > > > -- Regards, Jeff Deutschle Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. Thank You.
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