Greetings Joe, First of all, thanks for taking time out of your day to respond in such detail. I truly appreciate it. I asked for second opinions primarily because of your first paragraph. I felt the Protek would probably solve the problem in the short term, but without enough experience to know better, I felt it at least had the potential to cause different problems further down the road. Thank you for reaffirming what I already had a hunch about. As for your first suggestion, I do take a lot of pride in providing the best tuning I can. What came out of this tuning was generally a good thing, as confirmed by the big smile on my clients face as he sat down and played a few jazz tunes, but I wasn't internally happy with the methodology it took to accomplish the tuning. It took me about 3-4 pins before I started to figure out what tamed the beast the best. It would've been nice to have a mentor sit down and show me how it's done, but being alone with my hammer and the piano and the client sitting across the room, I just jumped in and tried to figure it out the best I could. As for being grizzled, my wife prefers the clean look so I fear I'm predestined to remain clean cut and fastidiously groomed. As to your second suggestion, I found the following to be true for this piano. A vast majority of the tuning pins were uniformly too tight, noisy, and jumpy. There were probably no more than 5-6 pins that were marginally easier to move. So, to loosen, remove the becket, drill, pound, and tune would be very time consuming and more expensive than what I believe the client is willing to spend. Based on the responses, and your details below, I believe my next course of action will be to simply lower the pitch, then move the pin back and forth to see how that loosens the pins, and then bring it up to pitch. I'll try this on a handful of pins to see if it becomes easier to move the pin. If it does, I believe I can generally move through the entire piano fairly quickly once I establish a routine. If it doesn't, then I'll tune the piano as I did this last time, and inform the client of his various options. I'll then see what he's willing to have me do. The good news is that during the last convention in Grand Rapids, I bought one of those new adjustable-handled tuning hammers from Schaff. I'm sure that will give me adequate leverage to accomplish the tasks at hand. As for what I wanted to hear, this was exactly what I was looking for! A well thought out, and helpful response based on good judgment and experience. I don't mind hearing tough answers or answers requiring hard work as long as they're truthful. I'll simply add this piano to my quickly growing knowledge bank of piano problems so it won't surprise me the next time I encounter this issue. Thanks again, Joe... Oh, by the way, I was just in Pittsburgh this past weekend. The weather was actually pretty nice for this time of year! Regards, Rob McCall McCall Piano Service, LLC Murrieta, CA rob at mccallpiano.com www.mccallpiano.com 951-698-1875 On Dec 02, 2009, at 00:08 , Joe DeFazio wrote: >> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf >> Of Rob McCall >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 7:16 PM >> To: pianotech at ptg.org >> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Oversized tuning pins >> >> So, from my original post can I get a couple of second opinions as to the >> best way to deal with the current situation? >> >> David, says zap'em and smoke'em. Marcel recommended a drop of Protek >> (CLP?) at the base of each pin. > > Hi Rob, > > Although I respect Marcel, and I am sure that his application of Protek worked for him, I would not recommend it in this instance. If you try it, and if the pinblock *ever* fails, you may well be held responsible. I'm certainly not in a position to know, but the block may have been failing prior to its repinning and restringing. In the process of repinning, pins that were quite possibly too large were driven into holes in the old and possibly failing block. Though these are now too tight and jumpy, a crack could very easily open up in one or more laminations of the pinblock at any time, leaving a whole row or rows of pins too loose. You, having put lubricant on a part of the piano that has as its primary job holding the pins sufficiently tight with sufficient friction, may get or at least share the blame if this happens (even if the restringing, and not the Protek, is truly the culprit). Once you start to treat a problem, the client may well perceive that you "own" that problem, and any repercussions or future issues that arise related to that problem may fall upon your shoulders (whether fair or not). > > I would suggest two possible courses of action: > > 1) Though you may not want to hear it, make the commitment to tune the piano excellently as it is. While you are working on it, instead of cursing, remind yourself that if you can tune this piano well, you can tune practically anything. Remind yourself how much your skills are improving by taking on and conquering this challenge. Remind yourself that some of the grizzled veterans on this list could probably tune it without too much trouble, and aim to be one of them someday (the eventual degree of grizzling will be yours to decide, of course - you may continue to shave and groom fastidiously into your dotage if you so desire). The next day, instead of being annoyed by your sore shoulder, notice how easy the Lester spinet you are tuning seems by comparison. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Annoying advice, I know. > > 2) Although all of the pins seem to be too tight and jumpy, they are probably not uniformly so. Surely, a handful will be even more problematic than the rest. If you really can't seem to tune those pins adequately, mark them with chalk, or a tiny dab of whiteout. The next time you come to tune the piano, try those pins first. If they are no better, then try one of these two earlier suggestions for those pins only: yank them back and forth vigorously for a prolonged period of time (my first choice), or try David Doremus' suggestion to back the pin out partially, remove the coil, drill, pound, etc. Then tune. Either of these activities is limited, targeted, reasonably quick (since you are only doing a handful of pins) and fairly traditional. Especially if you just yank them around, you are not likely to be perceived as treating the pinblock and "owning" the problem; it's just part of your next tuning. If you do back them out and pound them in again, do pull the action and use a pinblock support jack. If you just yank them around, bring a longer or extension hammer for more leverage, start with a big "down" move (of course), do your best to keep your movements rotational as opposed to flagpoling (remember that tuning pis do sometimes snap off; it is my guess, and guess only, that this is more due to flagpoling than to rotational movements), and re-dress the coils afterward as necessary. Sometimes, with very tight pins, I will put my "pounding" hand on the top of the tuning head/tip, and rotate around that point with my "tuning" hand. Both hands on the lever (one at either end) helps me to ensure and control a rotational movement. Of course, this is only for coarse moves as suggested in this paragraph - you can't really tune effectively without keeping you "pounding" hand on the keys. > > I have a feeling that this is not going to be what you want to hear, but it's what I would do. I don't see an easy and safe solution. I must confess that my first reaction upon reading your original post was "I bet I could tune that piano." Not that I'd really want to. My second thought was "I bet some of the most experienced folks on the list and in the PTG could tune it better and faster than I could." Unfortunately, excessively tight and jumpy pins are not that uncommon in restrung pianos with old blocks. > > Good luck with it, > > Joe DeFazio > Pittsburgh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20091202/087aafec/attachment.htm>
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