Dale and David,
Thanks for your replies. I will try to keep this short. David, I agree that hammers do change, I was pointing to the fact that there is service work to be performed after installation and playing. Same as servicing a new piano. And yes, there are many inpenetrable hammers out there which we have to try and service.
Dale, you are correct that I am not that experienced in voicing softer styles of hammers. That is a cultural differnce in our work, which I find refreshing. We all know that whatever technique we apply to a hammer, being needles or lacquer, it affects the sound. You are used to building up the tone, and your ear accepts the felt plus hardener sound. I find the lacquer to add a certain sound. The building up of tone plus hardener would maybe help with some of the problems I encounter with hammers in humid climates. However just as you have encountered problems with hard pressed hammers, I have encountered lacquered hammers that would be best descrbed as rocks. Unvoiceable to me.
The German hammers which I described in an earlier post can be improved by adding lacquer in different areas. Adding lacquer in the staple area will help with the fortissimo, whilst the playing in will help with the other "holes in the sound". With other hammers with a harder staple (pressed) area and a little more firm all over, I can perform voicing as I have been taught and achieve the result I am looking for.
My initial request was for a hammer that was for my own piano, however it is a search to find hammers that I can use on other pianos.. i.e customers. I did not want a hammer that I had to soak to achieve a better sound. I tried as much as possible not to suggest that lacquer is against my internal beliefs.
My exposure to hammers and voicing is from the traditional German methods. I did learn some "hammerkopf lack" techniques from these methods, however voicing with needles has been my main technique.I have no problem in hitting a hammer 100 times each side with 3x7mm size 6 needles, some this list would be horrified. I am open to new ideas with softer hammers, hence my first request.
I also live with "you get what you pay for".
May I also add a quote "the ear is trained by what it hears most of" or something very close to that. As much as the factories assume that we WILL voice their pianos, they will also discuss different ways of hiding flammable hammer hardener in luggage for air travel.
David and Dale, although this thread may have been seem to be a debate, I have found it informative and as also provided differences in rebuilding techniques and culture. I do try extremely hard to choose words that may not be taken out of context. A face to face discussion would be fun.
Enjoy your Sunday and regards
Brian
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 11:37:26 -0500
From: erwinspiano at aol.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] choice of hammers
Hi Brian
I could have used different words and let my opinion run a bit fast and loose. I apologize humbly to you...but consider this...
You've obviously taken the initiative to expose yourself to good training and may I suggest its only for one tonal model of hammer and, those voicing skills for that will serve you well in that concept.
Perhaps your assessment of after market hammers could be simply a lack of exposure to the less densified felt hammers available and the voicing techniques required. And to quote you "I don't' want a hammer I have to fill with lacquer" or something like that show to me perhaps a lack of exposure to this stlye that can yield truly beautiful,clear & yet msucially powerful tone..and with out all the ear splitting impact sound we encounter in the field.
Also the issue of hammer choice based on sampling is a great and intelligent approach to this work as David Love and others have so often endorsed.
In my expereince each piano has a voice that respond intrinsically well to one style of hammer and not to another. The closer you get to what it likes the less voicing one will need to do as well as secure voicing stability & musicality for the client who is paying the bill.
My rule of thumb is a stiff belly requires a stiff hammer. A flexible belly require a less stiff hammer.
I agree with David here. He & I, as many others,have used a wide variety of hammers and what he states in the bold print below is an observable fact by any tech in the field. The high decibel level and the non-musical sound quality (oxymoron) of so many factory hammers is appalling at best & doesn't show off the potential of the otherwise fine soundboard system that was so fastidiously engineered. And, I mean so many brands of pianos.
I've heard some amazing bellys in all types of pianos and it was sabotaged by predominatly hard hammers. I've replaced hammers in all kinds of pianos with a less densified hammer and the tonal improvement was immediate/stupendous & without hours of needling and the subsequent rebound effect that is so typical. The denser versions of hammers have there useage and can also produce fantastic results..... and, have place in my work as well but its less common and again based on sampling.
The factories somehow have the mistaken notion that all piano tuners are voicing literate and are going to voice their pianos. Not to offend any one else, I don't find this to be the case and Like me many techs are perplexed by attempts to voice some these hammers and many just grin and bear it when the client refuses the voicng upgrade proposal.
Many posts on this list have been how to deal with the Petrified felt hammer. Snuggle conditioner,vice grips,(Voice grips) moto tool with a needle etc. Taking the time to voice these harsher pianos often yield really good result but only when the hammers are workable band it require an upsell to the client & a willingness to do it by us.
I hope you find what your looking for.
Enough said....maybe
Dale
While the goal for some factories is to choose an out of the box hammer that can be brought to the showroom floor in a state which emphasizes power over other considerations (as is the Japanese aesthetic model—and that’s not a criticism, just a statement) that still doesn’t mean that they won’t change over the first 100 or so hours of playing. I can’t tell you the number of times that customers have called me after various after market hammers have been installed on their pianos complaining that the piano sounded just fine right at first but within a short period of time became strident and harsh.
I can also say, having put on many sets of “softer” out of the box hammers, that while they started underneath the desired level within a relatively short period of time they achieved a level that the players found very desirable and moreover remained much more stable having been played in to that level rather than forcing them to start there without adequate play in time. So, a different experience for me altogether but I guess that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla.
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] choice of hammers
Dale,
I don't believe there is a hearing loss problem. I know what I am after with tonality, especially with my own piano. And, I might have enough musical knowledge to know that some after market hammers are weak in tone... and they never improve. So that means to me that at some musical level the hammer will not be satisfactory. Yes, thanks to Messrs Suzuki, Yamamoto, Haruda and Goka from Kawai in Hamamatsu, I know what my piano can produce. I know the building process and the voicing processes. I have also replaced hammers with factory duplicates, and I have never needed to let the hammer mature. My clients would find this unacceptable. Fitting and voicing, and follow up service. And btw a few other factories do the same. I wanted a better quality hammer other than ordering Kawai originals.
As per a balanced tone spectrum, all I can add is that if it is easy to play softly and difficult to play loudly, there is a voicing issue. New pianos in factories also do not have this problem. At the present time, the original hammers are not too hard, considering I can remember the sounds from my training in Japan. I could also go to the local Kawai dealer and compare the two pianos.. and they are very similiar. I am replacing the butts because the synthetic leather on the butt and catcher is unsatisfactory, causing regulation problems. Might as well replace the hammers I thought.
I asked the list for a recommended quality hammer. Your opinions may be different to mine, and I respect that, but choosing to write "verbiage about power etc" is not respectful to me.
Regards
Brian
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