Hi Brian: Perhaps I inadvertently left the impression that I that I had placed this oilcan surprise in a somewhat adversarial relationship with my customer, the church and their music committee. This was not the case. I never had a discussion with them about me walking away from the job with the piano apart. What I did do was prepare myself with enough information and understanding of what was going on with the piano to have an informed discussion with them, to place enough information in their hands that they could go back to their committee meeting with a good knowledge of what was going on, and make a decision that best served their interests. I had a lengthy phone discussion with their contact person, answered his questions as completely as possible, and did so in a dispassionate manner. I ended that discussion with the observation that I understood that they would have to perhaps take some time to arrive at a decision, and that I would stop working until they made their decision.. They called me two days later with the go ahead. I also placed a revised estimate in the mail to them. I think it important to leave them with the feeling that I had consideration for the fact that they had placed their trust in me and that I was spending their money The pinblock was shot on this piano, which was the reason for them initially contacting me for the estimate, which meant that the piano was unplayable anyway, and could not be returned to them in playable condition without completing at least part of the rebuild (block and strings, and I was also rebuilding the action and finishing the case). If they had wanted me to do that, I would have had to charge them to do so. But they understood that this was a very compromised choice, and had enough funds to do the job right. What further pushed them into the new board was the fact that I was already spending a lot of their money. They don’t want to spend money badly, they certainly don’t want to spend a lot of money badly. Both of us were pleased with the result and choice. You would have the plate out to fully expose the soundboard if you were going to refinish the board or shim it, and if you were replacing the pinblock. Virtually all rebuilders pull the plate for a variety of reasons. But the plate would not even have to be out for you to measure the crown on an unloaded board, since measurements are taken with a string, straight edge, or some crown measuring device on the underside of the soundboard between the ribs. As Ron has elsewhere said, us rebuilders should be taking extensive crown readings and downbearing readings. For myself, I measure and quantify the crown at every rib I can get at, and take about a dozen down bearing readings. That doesn’t mean there will never be any surprises, but it does lessen the likelihood. And all those measurements tell the story of the condition of the board To answer your question about what would I have done, that really would have come from a continuation of the discussion with the church committee. I certainly would have had to be very clear as to how compromised the results would be if I did anything less than put in a new board. What I wanted to do was put in a new board, because it was the only good choice to make in terms of the needs of the piano. If they wanted me to string it as it was, I would have done so. It’s their piano, their decision, and their money. I strive to give my customers an accurate and detailed estimate, and try to deviate from that as little as possible. Still, once you get into the job there can be hidden surprises in many different places that are not readily foreseeable until after the piano is apart. Do you stick slavishly to the estimate and do less than you know the piano really needs, or do you do the job right? Of course, you will need to explain this to your customer and get their approval. I also allow myself a 15 % override, as written into the estimate. Ultimately, it’s all based on trust and their faith in you. That’s the real grease of the relationship, not the paper the estimate is written on. Good people skills, along with meticulous truthfulness, are what keep you out of court. Will Truitt From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of erwinspiano at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 5:36 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Reversing Crown Having been on church elder boards that balance budgets,activities and maintenace issues my experience is that there many really good hearted people involved who either run their own businesses or have skills of disernment in many areas. Honesty is the best policy & honest miscalculations are recieved with understanding...Honesty is always the best policy and respect comes right behind it. Chin up mate...plan B Dale Ok, help me understand this (mainly the words in bold). I'm not trying to be ugly in any sense of the word, just trying to understand. At the point where you find the zero or negative crown surprise, I'm assuming you've already destrung at a minimum. Are you going to "walk away from the job" with the piano unstrung and just return it to them that way? Or are you going to give it a quick restring in an attempt to put it back in it's original condition to return it? Or are you going to perform the work you originally contracted for... which doesn't sound like "walking away", but maybe could be interpreted that way? Some have mentioned finding negative crown after having removed a soundboard so if you haven't contracted for removing (replacing, or possibly repairing?) the soundboard in the first place, you wouldn't have it out to find that negative crown. It is good that the church in your example went for the new board. In for a penny, in for a pound. But had they not, at what point were you in the tear down process and what would you have done at that point? Or what would you have wanted to do in that point? Again, not trying to pick on you, but I'm having a hard time mentally getting to an answer that would be good for both parties and stand up in front of a judge. Hoping you can help me understand. Sincerely. Thanks, Brian _____ From: surfdog at metrocast.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:09:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Reversing Crown I agree with David. Twenty five years ago I rebuilt a 6’ 4” Vose grand for a church. It had some positive downbearing before I tore it down. After the plate was out, the crown had headed south for a permanent vacation, and obviously so. I had heard from others that sometimes the strings are literally holding the crown and it lets go when they are removed. That was my first and only. I approached the church about replacing the board after having contacted my bellyman at the time and costing everything out. I had prepared a detailed explanation why it needed to be done, and why it would be spending bad money to not do it, and be spending good money to do it – even though it was a considerable cost increase to them. I explained it matter of factly and without apology (why would I apologize for a condition that I did not cause and could not have foreseen?) They went for the new board, and were happy with the rebuild when done. It is simply too heavy a load to bear for you to assume the cost of replacing the soundboard. You are not that far into the job yet, and I would simply walk away from the job if they are not inclined to proceed. I don’t think it is that common for us to have this kind of surprise, but it does happen. As others have said already, taking a number of careful down bearing readings and crown readings when doing the estimate make such an ugly surprise a less likely occurrence. It is also important to have a written disclaimer in your estimate about unforeseen conditions before teardown. Resist the impulse to split the difference with them, they will believe it is your fault if you do. It is also possible that the reason why the board has oilcanned is related to bad work done originally at the factory lo those many years ago. They weren’t always perfect in the factory in 1929 either, although we all want to believe those were the Golden Years. But sometimes they drank their lunch on Friday back then too. Will Truitt _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. 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