BTW I should add that many Kawais produce very low inharmonicity readings (some Yamahas and other high tension scales as well) and the high end of those pianos often does come in with a much lower offset, C8 somewhere in the +25 cents range rather than around say +40 cents on a Steinway. That can be fine if the rest of the piano is consistent but when the F reading is so much difference it's a red flag to check that area of the piano. Sometimes a flatter bass as that number will produce can make the piano sound more consonant when you are playing at opposite ends of the piano together (low bass with high treble) but you then sometimes compromise the bass against the mid tenor. Let's face it, tuning is always finding the most agreeable compromise and opinions about what that is will vary. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 2:49 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended Large Baldwin uprights can have those kind of readings and I can't really say exactly what to do because it depends but the fact that you tune the bass aurally speaks to the issue. With that kind of reading I would be worried that the middle of the piano would be too narrow and the upper end a bit flat. I would probably want to consider expanding the tuning with the DOB and check that with the A2 - A3 or A3 - A5 double octaves assuming that I would tune the bass aurally or manually. The machine measures inharmonicity at F3 to make a judgment about tuning the bass. If the scale of the piano pushes the inharmonicity very high at F3 then you'll get a high reading that is likely too high for tuning the bass which tends to be lower inharmonicity and will require less stretch than the reading at F3 indicates. On a spinet you're almost guaranteed of high inharmonicity at F3 if the scale calls for plain wire there. If it's wrapped you'll often get a lower reading. I can't say what to do but when I get those kinds of readings I take care in checking the temperament octave(s) and assume that the bass will need to be carefully checked aurally or by direct interval tuning, i.e. hit the "tune" button before you continue down and the note on the display will be the coincident note being tuned to the lower octave note. If you want that coincident to be pure then set the lower note with the lights moving the same direction and speed as with the upper note or hit the measure button first so that the lights stop on the upper note then tune the lower note. Adjust accordingly for each step or for more or less stretch for that coincident harmonic. Speaking generally, it's a limitation with machines that has to be monitored. If the piano is well scaled throughout (do you know one that is?) then the machine produces a pretty nice tuning on its own. To the degree that the scaling has bumps or anomalous readings (especially in the notes used for measurement) then be prepared to tweak the tuning or settings. The reason I use the SAT is because it works well with my hybrid approach and is easily manipulated to accommodate problems in the tuning curve including a quick read of specific coincident harmonics. It may or may not be the most sophisticated in terms of reading all aspects of the scale and calculating a tuning but it works for me. To put it another way I rarely just accept what the machine tells me. I've used it enough to know when I might have a problem and have learned to make adjustments in the settings and always do at least a quick aural check as I'm going. More of a verification with an octave or fifth or fourth, tenth, something I can easily reach with one hand rather than a stop and do a check as I would tuning aurally. It's just a tool, not the holy grail. At least that's how I approach it. When I'm done, btw, I turn off the machine and go through the unisons again and at least spot check the octave and interval progressions through the trouble areas. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jim Busby Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 1:06 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended David, UST7s usually give 14-5-5 or something like that, but they're not spinets. What's your take on these pianos/scales? I've tuned thousands of them and usually just tune the bass aurally. How should I tweak the SAT and make it work better with these? Jim Busby -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 1:33 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended That's right. Spinets often give you an F reading of 15 - 20 which results in a very stretched bass. Better quality pianos that will tolerate more stretch usually yield a lower number like 6 - 8. The lower number produces a tighter (narrower) bass. The spinet actually needs the tighter bass that the lower number of a better quality piano will produce and not the more stretched bass that the higher number produces. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Paul Milesi Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:25 AM To: PTG Pianotech List Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended David & David, I, too, am anxious to clear this up. Paul Sanderson demonstrated to me at a convention that a lower F number results in a "tighter" bass, i.e., less stretched. That is, the SAT will place the bass notes (starting with B27) slightly sharper with a lower F number. Paul -- Paul Milesi, RPT Washington, DC (202) 667-3136 E-mail: paul at pmpiano.com Website: http://www.pmpiano.com > From: David Brown <dcbrown5 at exchange.asu.edu> > Reply-To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:18 -0700 > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Conversation: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > David- > > "Once the f6 measurement goes beyond 10.5 I just stop there and set it and > tune the bass by direct interval checking i.e., aural/electronic style. The > lower the F # the more stretched the bass will be. " > > Please correct me if I am wrong, but won't the lower F number give less > stretch in the bass? > > Thanks- > > David C. Brown > Arizona State University > School of Music > Piano Technician > 1-480-965-6760 > david.c.brown.2 at asu.edu > > > > >
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