What I wonder is why Will's post about 2/3rds down suddenly stops having a right margin? David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "William Truitt" <surfdog at metrocast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Received: 11/22/2009 6:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Gated communities >To the list: > >Well, we have drifted into politics, but so be it for the moment. I'll try >not to slash anybody's tires or threaten family pets with my comments. J > >I, for one, find Ric's comments intelligent and thoughtful. I don't think >he has an axe to grind here or even takes any pleasure in making comments >about America that others find negative. I would hope that others would >really listen to what he has to say and give it some thought, rather than >enter into Shoot the Messenger Mode as some have. > >It is my observation that Americans tend to have a somewhat myopic and >self-centered view of themselves, and they expect the world to see them >through their eyes rather than their own. And Americans tend to forget that >the needs and concerns of other nations and cultures are often different >than ours, and give them too little consideration. That they are different >from ours does not make them wrong, or us wrong. > >We live in times that are so politically fragmented and combative that we >have largely stopped truly listening to each other, and we mistake screaming >and accusing each other for communication. Moving forward requires that we >actually listen to one another and seriously consider the merits of >another's point of view. Democratic societies disintegrate when this >willingness to listen ceases. > >Recently, I heard a comment that I found very profound: "The lifeblood of >democracy is compromise. Without it, the only thing that remains is force." >I ask my readers to give that some thought. Every day of our lives is >filled with compromise, and there is good compromise and bad compromise. >Anyone who has been married or has children knows the word well. > >Like others, I have customers in gated communities. They are good people, >bad people, and everything in between; just like the rest of the world. And >the reasons they have for choosing to live in these places are varied. > >Mr. Vetter makes the point that "They are people trying to escape the asylum >we call our modern culture". Which speaks to Ric's point that "where >pulling away from each other trying to find an illusionary little safe house >village where they >can attempt to close the outside world off. They will start (already have >in not a few cases) to make their own rules for society, their own mini >governments and their own little legal, police and defense systems.... a >tendency that will continue. Its quite sad to see Americans finding more >and more ways of not having more to do with each other rather than building >inter community relations, ties... keeping the glue that has defined what an >"American" is fresh and holding strong. " > >Each of us has the right to make the choice of where we live and the reasons >why we live there. Some of us choose to move to the inner city to be an >engaged citizen trying to resurrect communities with deep problems. Others >move to gated communities and disengage from that part of our society that >they see as failing, and have essentially abandoned the rest of the society, >choosing to server their self interest only, and abandoning the problems of >the larger culture. This is particularly unfortunate in that these >successful people are able to live in these communities because they are >intelligent and capable. Without their participation in the larger society, >we lack the benefit of these talents, and the society is poorer for that. >So there is a cost to the continued health of our society when more and more >people opt out. If this kind of fragmentation continues, we become a >society of US and THEM. Indeed, we already are becoming just that. It is >an indisputable statistical fact that the rich are getting richer, and >everybody else is getting poorer - more and more wealth is concentrating in >the hands of fewer and fewer people, and that has accelerated during this >great economic crisis that we still find ourselves in. Who amongst us piano >technicians does not feel assaulted by these economic changes? It is not to >our benefit when fewer and fewer people feel they can afford our services. > >Will Truitt > > > > > > > > > > > >From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf >Of Chuck Vetter >Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:14 PM >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Gated communities > >Oh my! >Where to start? Rich, white, conservatives, in gated conservatives. What >then are rich, black, liberals who live in gated communities along side the >rich whites?They are people who are trying to escape the assylum we call our >modren culture. We are not victims of laissez faire policies. We, the entire >society, are victictims of "diversity at all cost" and political >correctness run rampant. We are told to celebrate diversity and accept the >most vile and immoral lifestyles as "just different'' and their values as >valid as our own. Hugo Chavez and Robert Mugabe (see news articals today) >are really nice people that should be understood in their own cultural >context. That is B.S. If theyrich can afford their lifestyle, good for them. >They are the people who frequently purchase, or donate money for expensive >things (like pianos). Tell me about the next time you service a fine >Bechstein or Bosey in the projects. >Sincerely, >Chuck Vetter >----- Original Message ----- >From: Leslie Bartlett <mailto:l-bartlett at sbcglobal.net> >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 5:20 PM >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Gated communities > >Sorry, it seems to me a legitimate concern to people who work in >metropolitan areas where such communities proliferate.. >les bartlett > > _____ >From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf >Of G Cousins >Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:04 AM >To: pianotech >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Gated communities > >Seriously Ric, >How do you really feel? >A PC (focused) society may just be one possible reason. >Maybe move somewhere that's better. Any suggestions? (on this planet) >IMHO Greatest country on earth, bar NONE! >Gerald P. Cousins, RPT and Citizen of The Unites States of America >PS Perhaps this thread could (should) move to another BB that caters to such >topics. >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: ricb at pianostemmer.no >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:55:11 +0100 >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Gated communities >These things are an attest to a society where pulling away from each > >other trying to find an illusionary little safe house village where they > >can attempt to close the outside world off. They will start (already > >have in not a few cases) to make their own rules for society, their own > >mini governments and their own little legal, police and defense > >systems.... a tendency that will continue. Its quite sad to see > >Americans finding more and more ways of not having more to do with each > >other rather then building inter community relations, ties... keeping > >the glue that has defined what an "American" is fresh and holding > >strong. Typically a refuge for the rather rich, and rather white > >conservatives... when the rest of the US gets poor enough... these walls > >and the people hiding inside will get ripped apart by an angry mob the > >likes of which the US has yet to encounter and evidently is incapable of > >yet comprehending. > > > >I suppose one good thing will come out of the self imposed destruction > >that awaits the US.... it will show the world once and for all how > >flawed unbridled laissez faire politics is.. how fated any society > >becomes in such predictable fashion that treads that path. It leads > >ironically enough towards a breaking up of a society into more and more > >separate social entities eventually disintegrating into a short lived > >period of near anarchical condition... followed by a long period of some > >form or another of localized anything but democratic authoritarian mini > >states in which the exact freedoms so fanatically sought by those who > >originally pushed the country down that road are near totally lacking.... > > > >You might as well have been born in 14th century central Europe.... What > >they do to your personal business practices at present is like totally > >unimportant :) > > > >RicB > > > > > > >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: ricb at pianostemmer.no >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:57:39 +0100 >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Gated communities >List.. > > > >sorry that went to the list... it was meant to be a private note. > >Haven't used this list much lately and forget how easily it is to punch > >the send button a second to soon. Didnt mean to bring politics onto the > >list forum. > > > >Cheers > >RicB > > >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: da88ve at gmail.com >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:50:23 -0700 >Subject: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for > A client called and said her daughter hears several buzzing > >notes. I just tuned it a few weeks ago and didn't hear any > >buzzing. But I go to check it out. Client wasn't home -- > >forgot I was coming. Fortunately there was a housekeeper who > >let me in. I play up and down the scale, and sure enough, > >there's some buzzing underneath somewhere. I open the bottom > >panel and see two small, rusty woodscrews lodged between the > >plate and the bottom board, one of them against the soundboard. > >I remove them, and, "Presto!" -- no more buzzing. (Why couldn't > >they have buzzed when I was tuning a few weeks ago?) > > Suddenly client shows up (was walking the dogs). I show her > >the screws, tell her there's no more buzzing, and she says, "Oh, > >thank you soooo much!" in a tone that's so grateful I can tell > >she thinks I came to remove the problem as a huge gratis favor, > >and that certainly I don't intend to charge anything. (When > >they say, "Do I owe you anything?" then you KNOW you'd better > >say, "No, that's OK -- I was in the neighborhood" or something > >similar.) > > I spent a half-hour driving, two minutes finding the > >problem, ten minutes waiting around for the client, and another > >half-hour back to the shop -- 1 1/4 hours for no compensation. > >Sometimes you just get the "vibe" from the client that they > >think any buzz, noise, tinnyness, or other quirk that shows up > >within, say, a month after you tuned it, is your fault, since it > >wasn't doing that before you tuned it, and therefore must've > >been caused by your "tuning" and you should come fix it for > >free. > > Oh sure, you can say, "I have a $xx minimum billing for > >service calls," but then you lose the customer and any referrals > >from them. > > I've even done 12 hours' extra labor on a large > >reconditioning job to get rid of problems they implied were my > >fault, even though these things were not in the job estimate, > >but from their tone of voice and attitude you can tell that it's > >either fix everything for free or get into a big argument, much > >unpleasantness, and maybe even a lawsuit. > > But of course you can't deduct the value of your time on > >your tax return, since the IRS doesn't see your time as being > >worth anything. > > --David Nereson, RPT > > > > >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: tompiano at bellsouth.net >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:14:57 -0500 >Subject: Re: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for >No you can't deduct that from your taxes, but those are the type of > >situations which keeps you in business. It's call good old customer service, > >going the extra mile to keep someone happy. Something which is lacking in > >many business rules books these days. > >Tom Servinsky > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "David Nereson" <da88ve at gmail.com> > >To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > >Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 6:50 AM > >Subject: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for > > > > > >> A client called and said her daughter hears several buzzing notes. I > >> just tuned it a few weeks ago and didn't hear any buzzing. But I go to > >> check it out. Client wasn't home -- forgot I was coming. Fortunately > >> there was a housekeeper who let me in. I play up and down the scale, and > >> sure enough, there's some buzzing underneath somewhere. I open the bottom > >> panel and see two small, rusty woodscrews lodged between the plate and the > >> bottom board, one of them against the soundboard. I remove them, and, > >> "Presto!" -- no more buzzing. (Why couldn't they have buzzed when I was > >> tuning a few weeks ago?) > >> Suddenly client shows up (was walking the dogs). I show her the > >> screws, tell her there's no more buzzing, and she says, "Oh, thank you > >> soooo much!" in a tone that's so grateful I can tell she thinks I came to > >> remove the problem as a huge gratis favor, and that certainly I don't > >> intend to charge anything. (When they say, "Do I owe you anything?" then > >> you KNOW you'd better say, "No, that's OK -- I was in the neighborhood" or > >> something similar.) > >> I spent a half-hour driving, two minutes finding the problem, ten > >> minutes waiting around for the client, and another half-hour back to the > >> shop -- 1 1/4 hours for no compensation. Sometimes you just get the "vibe" > >> from the client that they think any buzz, noise, tinnyness, or other quirk > >> that shows up within, say, a month after you tuned it, is your fault, > >> since it wasn't doing that before you tuned it, and therefore must've been > >> caused by your "tuning" and you should come fix it for free. > >> Oh sure, you can say, "I have a $xx minimum billing for service calls," > >> but then you lose the customer and any referrals from them. > >> I've even done 12 hours' extra labor on a large reconditioning job to > >> get rid of problems they implied were my fault, even though these things > >> were not in the job estimate, but from their tone of voice and attitude > >> you can tell that it's either fix everything for free or get into a big > >> argument, much unpleasantness, and maybe even a lawsuit. > >> But of course you can't deduct the value of your time on your tax > >> return, since the IRS doesn't see your time as being worth anything. > >> --David Nereson, RPT > > > > >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: surfdog at metrocast.net >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:45:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for >Hi David: > > > >You are still the master of your destiny, so the choice is entirely yours > >whether or not to charge for this visit. Most of the time I would, for the > >kind of reasons you give. Sometimes I don't charge my regular, good, > >longtime customers - but they always offer to compensate me because they do > >place a value on my time. My choice. > > > >One way around this is to make clear to the customer before the visit that > >there will likely be a service charge if the cause of the buzzing is > >unrelated to anything you did when you were there to perform your services. > >If I find my missing tool inside the piano, obviously I would not charge > >them. > > > >It is important to remember that one of the ways our customers get their > >cues on how much value to place on OUR time from US. The irony is that if > >we give away too much or charge too little, then too many people will > >correspondingly place little value to it. That is obviously the opposite > >reaction to what we would hope for from our customers. > > > >If the customer needs the explanation you just gave to us as to your > >investment of time and loss of work time that could be compensated > >elsewhere, give it to her and unapologetically, politely, and with a > >friendly smile on your face, HAND HER THE BILL. > > > >As for myself, I choose not to work for people who want me to work for free. > > > > > >My policy where there is a honest dispute is to give a little but not a lot. > >Giving away 12 hours labor free for work that you did not contract for falls > >in that category of giving away a lot. If you feel bullied by the customer, > >it is because you allowed yourself to be bullied. Losing that customer is no > >great loss because you don't want that kind of customer. And you likely > >will not retain them as a customer after you have given everything away, > >because they know they have worked you and so don't wish to face their > >victim. > > > >The vast majority of our customers are nice, honest, and fair people whom it > >is a pleasure to work for. But not everyone is, and we have to say no on > >occasion. And we are the only person who can make that choice to say no. > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Will Truitt > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf > >Of David Nereson > >Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 6:50 AM > >To: pianotech at ptg.org > >Subject: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for > > > > A client called and said her daughter hears several buzzing > >notes. I just tuned it a few weeks ago and didn't hear any > >buzzing. But I go to check it out. Client wasn't home -- > >forgot I was coming. Fortunately there was a housekeeper who > >let me in. I play up and down the scale, and sure enough, > >there's some buzzing underneath somewhere. I open the bottom > >panel and see two small, rusty woodscrews lodged between the > >plate and the bottom board, one of them against the soundboard. > >I remove them, and, "Presto!" -- no more buzzing. (Why couldn't > >they have buzzed when I was tuning a few weeks ago?) > > Suddenly client shows up (was walking the dogs). I show her > >the screws, tell her there's no more buzzing, and she says, "Oh, > >thank you soooo much!" in a tone that's so grateful I can tell > >she thinks I came to remove the problem as a huge gratis favor, > >and that certainly I don't intend to charge anything. (When > >they say, "Do I owe you anything?" then you KNOW you'd better > >say, "No, that's OK -- I was in the neighborhood" or something > >similar.) > > I spent a half-hour driving, two minutes finding the > >problem, ten minutes waiting around for the client, and another > >half-hour back to the shop -- 1 1/4 hours for no compensation. > >Sometimes you just get the "vibe" from the client that they > >think any buzz, noise, tinnyness, or other quirk that shows up > >within, say, a month after you tuned it, is your fault, since it > >wasn't doing that before you tuned it, and therefore must've > >been caused by your "tuning" and you should come fix it for > >free. > > Oh sure, you can say, "I have a $xx minimum billing for > >service calls," but then you lose the customer and any referrals > >from them. > > I've even done 12 hours' extra labor on a large > >reconditioning job to get rid of problems they implied were my > >fault, even though these things were not in the job estimate, > >but from their tone of voice and attitude you can tell that it's > >either fix everything for free or get into a big argument, much > >unpleasantness, and maybe even a lawsuit. > > But of course you can't deduct the value of your time on > >your tax return, since the IRS doesn't see your time as being > >worth anything. > > --David Nereson, RPT > > > > > > > > >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: mkurta1 at comcast.net >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:33:38 -0600 >Subject: Re: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for > David, I can see both sides of that question-to charge or not to charge? > >My thought is that the customer will remember how you handled their callback > >far longer than the original tuning you did, good or bad. Positive public > >relations are hard to come by, and is the stuff that makes you a hero in > >their eyes. Here is an opportunity to gain a chunk, and as you pointed > >out, they will tell others. > > By the same token there is a line over which one is taken advantage of > >and this judgement should be made on a case by case basis. We should not be > >considered doormats. However in my experience those times are really rare. > >We choose to be members of a SERVICE industry, and how we handle customer > >concerns is up to us. > > Have you noticed how we are now greeted in stores lately, and how > >friendly those folks are? Also it seems much easier to return an item > >nowadays from just awhile ago. This looks like a trend and it might be > >worthwhile for us to be aware of it and pay attention to our public > >relations too. > > Mike Kurta, RPT > > Chicago chapter > > > > >--Forwarded Message Attachment-- >From: AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:47:31 -0500 >Subject: Re: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for >William, Mike, great thoughtful answers. > > > >David............If you felt abused, you probably were. > > > >Al > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >From: "Mike Kurta" <mkurta1 at comcast.net> > >Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:33 AM > >To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > >Subject: Re: [pianotech] call-backs you can't charge for > > > >> David, I can see both sides of that question-to charge or not to > >> charge? My thought is that the customer will remember how you handled > >> their callback far longer than the original tuning you did, good or bad. > >> Positive public relations are hard to come by, and is the stuff that makes > >> you a hero in their eyes. Here is an opportunity to gain a chunk, and as > >> you pointed out, they will tell others. > >> By the same token there is a line over which one is taken advantage of > >> and this judgement should be made on a case by case basis. We should not > >> be considered doormats. However in my experience those times are really > >> rare. We choose to be members of a SERVICE industry, and how we handle > >> customer concerns is up to us. > >> Have you noticed how we are now greeted in stores lately, and how > >> friendly those folks are? Also it seems much easier to return an item > >> nowadays from just awhile ago. This looks like a trend and it might be > >> worthwhile for us to be aware of it and pay attention to our public > >> relations too. > >> Mike Kurta, RPT > >> Chicago chapter > >> > >
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