That's a good idea as long as the swivel wheels are the big ones. I have to admit I haven't seen any new dollies in a long time. I always envisioned swivel dollies as those little wheels... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Allan Gilreath, RPT" <allangilreath at bellsouth.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Received: 4/11/2010 8:45:26 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >Good morning all, >There's something interesting that I haven't see mentioned in this >thread: some of the best dollies now available feature swivel locks so >that one can have the security of straight wheels or the convenience of >swivel wheels. And the swivel lock can be engaged or disengaged while >the piano is on the dollie. We use both metal frame 4-wheel dollies in >this configuration as well as a metal grand moving board outfitted with >lockable swivel casters as well. These dollies aren't cheap but how much >does it cost to replace a piano? >I stopped using wood frame dollies long ago after having one split with >a 6'6" grand on a skid on top of the dollie. Yes, the piano was saved. >Another item I see in the picture presented is he use of a tuck-under >liftgate on the truck rather than a rail-lift. A rail lift goes straight >up and down while the tuck-under swings due to the nature of the hinging. >Allan >Allan Gilreath, RPT >Registered Piano Technician >President - Allan Gilreath & Associates, Inc. >website - www.allangilreath.com <http://www.allangilreath.com> >email - allan at allangilreath.com <mailto:allan at allangilreath.com> >phone - 706 602-7667 >On 4/11/2010 7:47 AM, William Truitt wrote: >> Well, yes, I have been on many a lift gate over the years. Virtually all my >> experience is with swivel dollies, I have rarely seen a mover use anything >> else. I have done my own moving occasionally at times to and from >> customer's houses over the years. As a piano dealer for 7 years, I unloaded >> every new grand or vertical piano I received from Keyboard Carriage - >> usually myself and the KC driver; or myself, an employee, and the KC driver. >> The trucks always had lift gates. So I have a fair amount of experience >> doing this, although I do not consider myself a professional piano mover. I >> am not as skilled as them because I don't move pianos day in and day out >> (nor am I as young anymore!). And I have always used good people - I have >> been known to turn movers away who have been sent by someone else to pick up >> a valuable instrument. Watching them work, I decided I couldn't trust them >> and declined to allow them to take a piano. That's a very rare occurrence >> where I made the decision reluctantly (fixed wheel dollies had nothing to do >> with it). At one point as a dealer, I was hiring out almost a hundred moves >> a year. I'm not a mover, but I still have an eye and a brain, so I watch >> and learn. >> >> As for the number of men they use, most of the time it has been 2 men for >> pianos up to 7 foot. For larger pianos, 3 men. These numbers would change >> if the move is particularly difficult at the delivery end due to stairs or >> such. Your remark elsewhere "ask these movers how many pianos they have >> dropped", implies a broad level of knowledge about swivel casters that you >> don't have. You presume your own experience or prejudice on others. Having >> seen a thousand? Moves or more, they've never dropped anything on me. I >> believe that if you were to watch my movers do a few moves, you would be >> impressed with their skill and knowledge as well as their efficiency. >> >> That said, and having read your remarks and those of Jon Page and others >> about your safe use of a fixed wheel dolly, I will yield to this body of >> experience with fixed wheel dollies and stand corrected about their safe use >> by movers. I have presumed my own experience and prejudice on others here >> and I acknowledge that. >> >> It is certainly fair to say that a mover can do a bad move using either kind >> of dolly. Proper technique will differ for the safe use of each. But >> saying that a mover can do an unsafe move with a swivel dolly is not the >> same thing as saying that swivel dollies are inherently unsafe, which is >> what you and some others seem to be saying here. Is a table saw inherently >> unsafe? No, it isn't. It is a safe tool when known and proper techniques >> are used. Ditto for the swivel dolly. And that proper technique is used >> safely day in and day out by skilled movers with swivel dollies - indeed, by >> the majority of professional piano movers. That's just simply true. >> >> If the grand piano is on a skid board that is tightly strapped to the dolly, >> and both are tightly strapped to the wall of the truck, what is unsafe >> about a properly secured piano on a dolly? If the truck is on an incline or >> side angle, those angles may exist on the walk the mover has to go down with >> the piano on the dolly. I'm not arguing against your method of moving, I >> recognize that you can do a safe move in this manner if you so choose. But >> that is equally true for the swivel dolly strapped to the wall. It's a >> function of proper technique used by trained professionals. Always. >> >> Will >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On >Behalf >> Of David Ilvedson >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:40 PM >> To: pianotech at ptg.org >> Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >> >> Your missing my point and I don't think you ever been on a lift bed with a >> piano on a dolly...fixed or swivel... '-] Swivel wheels on a lift is >> asking for trouble. We never left the pianos on dollies in the truck. >> Slid it on the lift bed and slid it into the truck. You use the lift be to >> lift the piano to set the dolly and as I said we didn't dead lift from the >> floor to set the dolly. >> >> David Ilvedson, RPT >> Pacifica, CA 94044 >> >> ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- >> From: "William Truitt"<surfdog at metrocast.net> >> To: pianotech at ptg.org >> Received: 4/10/2010 8:00:12 PM >> Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >> >> >> >>> You are missing my points. A lift bed is flat enough to safely use swivel >>> wheeled dollies safely and consistently with PROPERLY TRAINED PROFESSIONAL >>> PIANO MOVERS. It is done safely all the time every day by 99 plus percent >>> of all professional piano movers - who do not need the perceived security >>> >> of >> >>> a straight wheeled dolly, who manage the instability easily with proper >>> technique. In fact, they often do this when the truck is sitting a little >>> sidehill and/or downhill too. I've watched my movers do it this way for >>> years, presenting no problems to them. A properly set dolly will be >>> balanced with either kind of dolly. I think what you mean is leverage. >>> >> >>> We should not mistake the sense of security that occasional piano >>> >> technician >> >>> movers might feel they need for the safest and best (or only) method for >>> professional piano movers to use. >>> >> >>> We can debate the kind of dolly to use, but I also detailed other examples >>> of improper use of equipment that indicate that these guys were fully >>> knowledgeable about the right tools and good technique. >>> >> >>> Will >>> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On >>> >> Behalf >> >>> Of David Ilvedson >>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:10 PM >>> To: pianotech at ptg.org >>> Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >>> >> >>> A properly set dolly offers little trouble turning a piano. It's called >>> balance. Swivel wheeled dolly not only can go back forth but what ti go >>> right or left depending gravity. A lift bed is rarely flat. >>> >> >>> David Ilvedson >>> Pacifica, CA >>> >> >>> On Apr 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, "William Truitt"<surfdog at metrocast.net> >>> >> wrote: >> >> >>> " Non-caster wheels offer more stability on an diagonal incline >>> and offer a more secure transit in general." >>> >> >>> Please support your conclusion that non-caster wheels (straight line >>> >> wheels) >> >>> offer a more secure transit in general (than a pivoting wheel such as seen >>> on a piano dolly) >>> >> >>> If you do not want to veer off a straight line, yes it would be more stable >>> - it will resist moving in any other direction than the direction the >>> >> wheels >> >>> are aiming. However, in order to execute a turn, you must lift two wheels >>> off the ground and then frictionally force the remaining two to pivot. Not >>> easy with 12 to 1400 lbs bearing on those small surfaces. Why would you >>> want to lift more than you have to, when you simply can easily pivot the >>> piano on all four wheels of the piano dolly, and in tight spaces too? >>> That's what they are designed to do. You don't have to lift one end of >>> this beast to rotate the piano on the board end with a piano dolly, you >>> simply rotate the piano in the direction desired by movers pushing at each >>> end, being sure to keep the piano stable by holding the piano high and >>> moving it from there. Yes, there is an inherent instability to a piano >>> dolly when on a slight incline, the wheels will want to straighten to >>> >> follow >> >>> the path of least resistance and roll downhill. But that is what proper >>> moving techniques are for to compensate for that, and what professional >>> piano movers use all the time to move quickly and safely. And the lift >>> >> gates >> >>> do not angle much, or at all. >>> >> >>> Where is the diagonal incline you are talking about in the pictures? >>> >> >>> In the context of all the movements required to roll the piano out onto the >>> gate and pivot it until the piano is perpendicular to the truck, the fact >>> that the wheels were not casters has everything to do with this not being a >>> safe move (in totality). >>> >> >>> I have never met a full time professional piano mover who used anything >>> other than a pivot wheel piano dolly. That's a lot of movers I've seen. >>> >> >>> Will >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On >>> >> Behalf >> >>> Of Jon Page >>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:13 PM >>> To: pianotech at ptg.org >>> Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >>> >> >>> Seems to me that they got in trouble by not rotating the piano >>> perpendicular to the truck on the raised lift gate prior to lowering. >>> They and ended up with it propped between the truck bed and gate. >>> >> >>> They needed to rotate the piano on the board end and that's >>> probably when things got out of hand. >>> >> >>> The fact that the wheels were not casters has no bearing on it. >>> Non-caster wheels offer more stability on an diagonal incline >>> and offer a more secure transit in general. >>> -- >>> >> >>> Regards, >>> >> >>> Jon Page >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >-- >PK
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