List: Is it possible to regulate an upright action in a shop environment? To do it properly, I believe, it must be somehow mated to a keybed, keys and something that emulates a string matrix that would allow proper adjustment of key height, key dip and blow distance. I am very new to the business and unaware if shop regulation of an upright action can be properly accomplished. Any thoughts about this? Tom Rhea Rhea Piano Service _____ From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Piano Boutique Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:09 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide Al, The term I use is an action upgrade. I just take the action to another level and do the very best I can for the customer. William ----- Original Message ----- From: reggaepass at aol.com To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide When I sell a "regulating", I'm saying to my customer that I will make their piano the best that it can be with the existing part ... and there are some who refer to what we may call "voicing" as "tone regulation," which, at the end of the day, cannot be completely isolated from the effects (hopefully positive) of mechanical regulation. I refer to the operation I sell as "reconditioning (of existing parts, mostly) and regulation." The reconditioning part include items such as key bushing, center pinning and the like. Alan Eder -----Original Message----- From: Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft <AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 7:06 am Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide .......after all, you can file hammers and clean, polish and voice without regulating. Can you really? What just happened to the letoff after you filed the hammers? Oh, OK, let me just adjust the letoff. Oh. wait a minute, now I need to fix the drop. Oh wait, the springs. And so on and so on. I guess I have been using the wrong terminology. When I sell a "regulating", I'm saying to my customer that I will make their piano the best that it can be with the existing part. Everything working to the highest level and peak performance. I sell the whole package. You know the term "Be all that you can be." I can't make a Knabe a Steinway, but I will make the Knabe perform to its highest level with the existing parts. I not judging others or saying their way is wrong, I'm just saying that's the way I do it. At this point I guess I need to come up with a better term to describes what I'm doing and what my customers are getting for their money. Al - High Point, NC From: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> David Love Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:38 AM To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide Yes that is true. I don't consider cleaning, filing hammers, or voicing "regulating". Since the needs of each piano will vary I approach each job individually and don't lump everything under the umbrella of regulating. Hammer filing, cleaning, voicing are different things than regulating and while some of them might be done in advance of the actual regulation procedure (except voicing which should be done after and probably on site rather than in the shop) I try and avoid confusion by separating the procedures-after all, you can file hammers and clean, polish and voice without regulating. I don't move the piano to my shop for the work you describe. In this area that can add another $700 to the job (or more) for moving and I see that as an unnecessary expense for the customer, money that might be better spent on something else the piano needs and also which goes into my pocket, not the movers. So in answer to your question when I "sell" a regulating job I do what is necessary always mindful of the needs and budget considerations of the customer. I describe the procedures that are required and the benefits of each. If there are budget considerations I make recommendations about where to prioritize, whether omitting something now might result in additional costs later because of duplicated work, etc. I try and educate customers as much as possible about the piano so that they can make informed decisions now and in the future. If they want to do something that doesn't make sense I let them know. If the action requires the replacement of any parts, balance rail punchings, key rest felt, key end felt, etc., then I remove the action to the shop, replace the necessary parts, rough regulate on the bench do the final regulation on site in the piano. David Love <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> www.davidlovepianos.com From: Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft [ <mailto:AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com?> mailto:AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:58 AM To: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> davidlovepianos at comcast.net; <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide David, I guess that's the answer. It all depends on what we consider regulating. There are some good techs that go into someone's home for a day or less and get maybe $500 for a regulating. When I sell a regulating I get over $2000 and the piano comes into my shop. My regulating procedure is about 35 steps, including shaping the hammers, voicing, adjusting the dampers, adjusting the trap-work, cleaning the action and keys, polishing capstans, etc, etc, etc. I try to get the piano as close to factory+ as it can be made, without rebuilding or installing new parts. Of course any new action parts, hammers, key bushings, damper felts are all at an additional cost. I guess that could be the next topic. How much do you do when you sell a complete regulating? Al - High Point, NC From: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> David Love Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 3:47 PM To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide I guess I would consider that "preregulation" David Love <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> www.davidlovepianos.com _____ From: "Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft" < <mailto:AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com> AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com> Sender: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:21:19 -0400 To: < <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org> ReplyTo: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide I always remove the key and stack when I do an action regulating. I clean the action frame, key, felts, etc. I check the integrity of the keys, felts, action parts and frame. I truly can't imagine anyone doing a complete action regulating without doing that. Al - High Point, NC From: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> David Love Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 10:34 AM To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide Why would I remove the stack and keys to regulate the piano? Unless I'm leveling the keys from scratch I perform all regulating procedures with the action assembled and that includes even minor changes in the key leveling. There can be, as Ed Foote and Paul R-J pointed out, problems with bedding arising from poor stack fitting or irregularities in the key bed but I find that these problems (or that there is a problem) become evident and push you in the direction of taking an additional step to discover the nature of the problem which may very well be removing the keys. But most of the time, it's unnecessary and doesn't produce a more accurate bedding than the method I described, at least that's what I find. I'm just offering this as another way to approach it whichever way people want to do it is fine with me. David Love <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> www.davidlovepianos.com From: Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft [ <mailto:AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com?> mailto:AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 5:19 AM To: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> davidlovepianos at comcast.net; <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide Yes, true, but when you are regulating a piano, don't you remove the stack and keys? That's my point, if you have the stack and key off, I think it's an easier, better way to do it. But if you are not regulating the piano, there is nothing wrong with fitting the frame with the keys on. I do it all the time. Al - High Point, NC From: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> David Love Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:43 AM To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide Geez. I think we're having a hard time with the word "contrarian". So let me restate. Contrary to those who advocate for bedding the keyframe with the stack and keys removed I prefer to do it with the action assembled. Of course I don't think there's anything wrong with either method. I do think that going to the trouble of removing stack and keys is unnecessary. David Love <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> www.davidlovepianos.com _____ From: "Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft" < <mailto:AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com> AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com> Sender: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:31:26 -0400 To: < <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org> ReplyTo: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide David, it's neither contrarian nor wrong to bed the frame with the keys on, in fact, that's the way I do it in the field or when prepping a piano for sale. The only time I bed the frame with the stack and no keys is when I have a piano in my shop and I'm doing a regulating. Al - High Point, NC From: <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> David Love Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 1:08 AM To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide It's contrarian in that the others were advocating bedding the keyframe with keys and stack removed. I see no particular advantage in doing it that way and in the field it's not practical. I suppose you should check the una corda bedding but if it's different what do you do? I would opt for the bedding with the key set in the rest position. David Love <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> www.davidlovepianos.com From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of <mailto:PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com> PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 9:51 PM To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] was curve now glide David: This isn't contrarian. It's just the same procedure with the entire assembly together. The advantage of achieving positive contact with the keys off, then loading them on after, is to insure that the flex of the keybed with pedal use doesn't "unbed" the center even by the slightest. No-one has addressed shift-bedding (una corda). There can be very slight variations across the surface of the bed where the glide contacts it, and it is wise to check the una corda position bedding as well. Minor detail. P In a message dated 10/15/2010 7:58:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, <mailto:pianoboutique at comcast.net> pianoboutique at comcast.net writes: Not to be a contrarian but I bed keyframes with everything together. The technique I use was presented by Steinway's John Patton at one of the conventions. Can be done in a couple of minutes or less on a Steinway. Pianos that have glides that are buried underneath the keys require at least the removal of the covering keys naturally. The process is simple and requires you to just back off the glides enough to be sure that none are touching the keybed which you can test be pressing down on the glide bolt with a wrench (or a screw driver if it's a screw type) using the back of your hand against the pinblock as leverage. You will be able to see the keys flex downward when there is a space there. When they all produce a bit of flex then start in the center and turn each bolt down until there is no flex, backing it off just slightly in order to produce that telltale knock and then just setting the bolt down to eliminate the knock/flex. Go alternately outward until all are bedded. Then go back to the center and make sure you haven't "unbedded" the center glides by turning the outer bolts down too far. If you have then start over. It requires a bit of touch and sensitivity but it can be done quickly and accurately with some practice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20101018/d6275b81/attachment-0001.htm>
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