Sorry, in the first sentence I'm referring to a grand. If you read down I talk about the difference between uprights and grands in with respect to hammer position. I think it's better to think of this in terms of quadrants rather the clock face since the orientation of the clock face changes between an upright and grand in terms of the direction of the speaking length. In a grand 12-3 is the first quadrant, 3-6 the second quadrant, 6-9 the third and 9-12 the fourth. In the 1:30 position on a grand you're in the first quadrant, in the 1:30 position on an upright you're in the 3rd quadrant. The force of the lever in terms of the direction in which the pin is flexing will be opposite. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Joe Goss Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:10 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Technique: was Q & A Roundtable Grand Upright? Joe Goss BSMusEd MMusEd RPT imatunr at srvinet.com www.mothergoosetools.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Technique: was Q & A Roundtable > No, in the 12 - 3 (let's say 12:01) position the flexing of the pin by > virtue of pulling on the lever is away from the speaking length and will > drive the pitch sharp. Only in a position between 6 and 12 does the > pulling > of the tuning lever naturally flex the pin toward the speaking segment. > Think quadrants relative to the direction of the speaking length as I > suggested in the longer piece. Tuning at 1:30 on a grand is like tuning > at > 10:30 on an upright. If you tune at 1:30 on a grand you flex the pin away > from the speaking length, if you tune at 1:30 on an upright you flex the > pin > toward the speaking length. That outlines two distinct differences in how > you approach the target pitch when tuning both from the 1:30 position. > The > natural flexing of the pin is moving the pitch in opposite directions. > You > need to compensate for that fact when you determine your degree of > overshoot. > > The fact is (and I'm not necessarily addressing you but the general > discussion) most people just find a way to do what's necessary without > really thinking about it. The movements they make are kind of instinctive > and part of a feedback loop. That's ok and necessary in fact as a part of > the process. My tendency, however, is to try and understand what's > actually > happening and thereby try and use that to help me to control things > better. > I find it helps me in terms of speed and stability since it gives me an > awareness of what I'm actually compensating for when I apply back pressure > or whatever movements I happen to use which are necessary. It helps to > establish a general pattern of movements through the piano rather than a > sort of random and different approach to each pin as some have suggested > is > their normal experience. I don't find that to be true. Working to > develop > an awareness of what's actually going on and what and how I can control > it, > I find, makes the process more consistent from pin to pin and thereby more > efficient and faster. In my world, speed counts. Not at the expense of > accuracy or stability. But if I can do it faster rather than slower with > the same result, I choose faster. But I'm just speaking from my own > experience. For me, getting through the entire piano in 45 minutes is > common, and I don't feel like I'm rushing or taking shortcuts, it's just a > matter of efficiency. YMMV. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of Joe Goss > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:38 AM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Technique: was Q & A Roundtable > > Hi David, > In my thinking that happens automatically when tuning hammer is at 12 to 3 > and one is using a 20% head. Less at 12 and more at 3 > Joe Goss BSMusEd MMusEd RPT > imatunr at srvinet.com > www.mothergoosetools.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:22 AM > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Technique: was Q & A Roundtable > > >>I suppose I could have worded it more precisely but it's not at all >>nonsense >> and it's easy to demonstrate if you're open to it. You can flex the pin >> forward while you are turning it such that the pitch actually drops in >> spite >> of the fact that you are turning it in the sharp direction. Then when >> you >> release the flex which, in this case, is pushing the pitch to the flat >> side >> more than the twisting of the pin is pushing it to the sharp side, the >> pitch >> will climb to your target. The tension in the first segment never rises >> above the target tension. A controlled flexing like this in which the >> flexing offsets the twisting means that the higher amount of tension >> often >> left in that first section (which tends to cause stability problems with >> the >> pitch moving flat) never occurs. That's my point but feel free to parse >> it >> any way that gets you off. >> >> David Love >> www.davidlovepianos.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ron Nossaman >> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:59 AM >> To: pianotech at ptg.org >> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Technique: was Q & A Roundtable >> >> On 2/2/2011 2:07 AM, David Love wrote: >>> Overshooting means that you increase the tension in the first segment of >> the >>> string (the segment leaving the tuning pin) to the first friction point >>> before the speaking length moves. >> >> Nonsense. That has nothing whatsoever to do with overshooting. If you're >> going to raise the pitch of the speaking length with the tuning pin, >> you'll increase the tension in the first segment first and most. That's >> not hammer technique. That's kindergarten physics. >> >> >> >>>If you tune with counter pressure applied to the >>> tuning lever that compensates for the twisting of the pin, you can move >> the >>> pin in the block without increasing the tension in that first section, >>> no >>> overshoot. The risk of exceeding the break point then is minimized. >> >> Absolute nonsense. It's still the higher tension in the first segment >> that pulls the string from the speaking length through the agraffe or >> capo. >> Ron N >> >> > > >
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC