----- Original Message -----
From: Dean May
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] 4ths 5ths
He wouldn't catch near as much if you (and others) knew when to stop hitting the reply button.
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From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kline
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:26 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] 4ths 5ths
He wouldn't catch any flak at all if he'd just live and let live, Jer.
Player techs -- always room for plenty of good player techs. He doesn't have to be a concert technician. He doesn't have to be an RPT, or even an aural tuner. I'm just not going to let him tell me I'm inferior to him because I am one.
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssnnnnnn
On 2/2/2011 5:41 PM, Gerald Groot wrote:
I know one thing. I do appreciate the Duaine's and Rick Davies that works on player pianos. Frankly, I hate working on them and won't. Rick Davies lives about 60 miles from me. He is not an RPT but yet, I am proud to call him my friend and to recommend him all of the time for every referral I receive regarding player rebuilds because he does good work. I sure don't know what I'm doing when it comes to all of that player crap and I readily admit it too and so, I leave it to these guys. There are plenty of player pianos out there and will be for eons to come yet.
Jer
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Dean May
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:23 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] 4ths 5ths
Fortunately the rich and varied human experience may not require one to fit into one of Wim's three narrow categories.
>>There are three different levels of tuners. There are those who tune aurally, but are not able to pass the tuning exam, which requires very aural basic tuning skills. These tuners are convinced that the tuning test is flawed, but are happy to tune at their level. They make enough money from their customers, and do not see need to try to improve their tuning skills. <<
Or perhaps they are able to pass the test. Perhaps they are not necessarily convinced the test per se is flawed, but after thirty years in the business see no compelling reason to subject themselves to the process or expense. They continue to improve their tuning skills, make plenty of money, are gratified to hear continuous reports from new customers that their pianos have never sounded so good, derive great satisfaction from being able to solve problems that have stumped other tuners, love being able to share tips with younger techs, and thoroughly enjoy being able to restore music to a house by bringing life to pianos for minimal cost that other tuners have condemned.
Personally I have no desire to cater to the CAUT industry, which is the most compelling reason I can come up with for me to take the test at this stage of my life. (I'm 53 years old and too tired. I should follow Terry Peterson's lead). The thing I love most about this business is connecting with lots of regular folks for customers, and for the most part, they have no idea what RPT means. I don't have RPT, yet I lead all the area tuners, one of whom is a CAUT RPT, in my pricing. What does that say?
One of the biggest problems I have with the test is that, being a BSME PE, I understand the nature of testing instruments. To pass, I will have to study to take the test. I know there will be artificial questions on the test that have little to do with the nature of my business (e.g., when did A440 become the industry standard pitch). I'm busy enough. I'd rather all my study efforts be devoted to improving skills that actually help my customers, not passing a test.
The main benefit to RPT status is for younger technicians to offer some instant credibility. Certainly not the only benefit and I do not intend to denigrate the status. I commend those of you who have it. What I wish to say is please cut just a little slack to those of us who have been doing this for awhile and have chosen not to go the RPT route for our own reasons.
Consider Duaine Helcher, the list's favorite whipping boy. This man obviously has a few clues about pianos, and has spent considerable time in continuing ed and perserving rare player piano information. Yet some of you talk to him with such condescension like he is totally ignorant bcause he won't pursue RPT that it gets embarrassing. Give the man a little credit. He has some good things to share. Do you really want him to stop posting to this list?
I figure, like most of you on this list, I spend 200-300 hours per year on continuing education, both in learning and sharing with others. Think about how many hours per week you spend on this list alone, multiply by 52, then add in chapter meetings, conventions, research for individual jobs, etc. I love being in a craft profession where one is continually challenged to get better. Thanks to all on this list who share so generously and as a result have made me a better tuner/technician (even Duaine).
Dean
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From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of tnrwim at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:50 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] 4ths 5ths
Allow me to make one final comment on this thread.
There are three different levels of tuners. There are those who tune aurally, but are not able to pass the tuning exam, which requires very aural basic tuning skills. These tuners are convinced that the tuning test is flawed, but are happy to tune at their level. They make enough money from their customers, and do not see need to try to improve their tuning skills.
Or perhaps they are able to pass the test. Perhaps they are not necessarily convinced the test if flawed, but see no compelling reason to subject themselves to the process. They continue to improve their tuning skills, make plenty of money, are gratified to hear continuous reports from new customers that their pianos have never sounded so good, derive great satisfaction from being able to solve problems that have stumped other tuners, thoroughly enjoy being able to restore music to a house by bringing life to pianos for minimal cost that other tuners have condemned
Then there are those tuners who use an ETD, and are satisfied with the results they get. They do not see a need to try to improve on it. They think the tuning exam is not necessary because they know, in their heart, that the ETD gives them the best tuning that can possibly be gotten out of the piano. Most of their customers are happy with their results, and they do not see the need to try to improve on their tuning skills.
And then there are those tuners who are able to listen to the results of an ETD, and not only can hear the minor flaws it produces, but can do something about it. These are the tuners who are willing to spend the extra time and effort to correct the minor flaws, and do the best tuning that instrument can produce, not necessarily because their customer demands it, but for their own satisfaction, which is why they became an RPT in the first place.
Wim.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul T Williams <pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu>
To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 11:52 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] 4ths 5ths
Susan, unfortunately, you're preaching to a wall. Quit feeding the cat. If you feed a stray cat, he'll come back again and again. Please just call it quits with this guy. You and he are never to agree, and that's that. Let's all just let this go and go back to our lives and tuning the way we see fit. The eternal argument isn't just between you two (and a some on Wim), and keeps creeping up every 6 months or so and then we're all back to the "circle the wagons", here comes the enemy thing.
The strange, but funny thing is, 99% of the home-owned piano people would ever know what method is better, can't hear the difference, or care: Only the most professional pianists and other master musicians will be able to tell; AND, the beauty of the tuning is in the master of the hammer skills and ears to hear; not the devices he/she uses to get it there. Some aural tuners are awesome, some ETD tuners are awesome. I will give you this, however, Susan; You have to use your ears and intuition, period! Merely looking at a machine will never make a great tuner. JMHO. There again, another can of worms that must be used for fishing, not arguing.
Nothing you, I, or anybody on this list is going to change the way Duiane or any other is going to do "their" thing. It's too bad to not be open minded, but those with a barred door can not open it.
Let's please drop this thing!
Thank you. Still aural, with an occasional ETD helper... JUST TO HELP!
Paul
From:
Susan Kline <skline at peak.org>
To:
pianotech at ptg.org
Date:
02/02/2011 11:54 AM
Subject:
Re: [pianotech] 4ths 5ths
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On 2/1/2011 11:30 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:
You are being the most boisterous against ETD usage.
I'm being the most boisterous in favor of aural tuning.
What you take as dissing ETDs in general are my attempts
to explain why I (not anyone else, _I_) don't want to use
one.
My problem with you isn't that you use an ETD. It's that
you seem to hate anyone who uses aural tuning instead of
one.
Also, I believe the many experts here, most of whom use
ETDs every day, when they say it can't stand alone.
Now, these ears of yours ... It's not a physical problem,
obviously. It's a strain on your patience and concentration,
because the beats are hard for you to hear. This happens to
some people, especially when they are beginning. The trick
is to find out WHERE (at what pitch) you should be
listening for the beats.
They are higher partials, not the fundamental. You obviously
can hear them somewhat, or you couldn't tune unisons and
octaves.
If you set up an interval, and want to hear the beats, start
with thirds in the middle register, which are going not too
slow, not too fast. Mute off the two notes so each is a single
string. Start tuning one of the notes, till you get a good,
prominent beat. Some of the beats for major thirds are so
prominent they practically knock your socks off! That should
give you an idea of the pitch at which the beat is occurring.
You can hum it. If I were there I could hum it at you.
wow - wow - wow - wow etc.
Once you figure out which pitch to listen at, the whole thing
should ease up and not be such a big problem. You can gradually
listen to faster beats and to slower ones.
You have noticed that when you hear a fifth or a fourth, it
has a curl to it? It's like a vowel sound. You can vocalize
the vowel sound and then get it to go the speed you want as
you tune the note. This kind of slow-beating interval is
highly useful to evaluate how even your temperament is. It
can be a vocal thing, like oooaaaawwwwuuuu. For unisons, also,
vocalizing helps. You want to get long open vowels, like ah
or oh, instead of eeeee or diphthongs, like eeeeyyaaaa.
Don't worry about beats per second. Theoretically it's good
information, but most of the determinations you need are relative
instead of numerical. It's good to have a rhythmic memory of
how fast the F-A at the start of the temperament sequence goes.
Then one tunes the octave F, and fiddles the C# in between so
that the three thirds progress. None of that takes counting
against a stopwatch, or anything. And there are four notes of
the scale in pretty good places.
Heck, it's a start. Just master that and you should feel an
awful lot more confidence and comfort. Listening for fourths
should stop being an ordeal by the Inquisition.
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