[pianotech] Respect

[David Love]

All due respect Susan but how can you possibly tell whether the pianos in those recordings were tuned aurally or with etds and what if you're wrong? What does that then say about aural tuning? I think you are over reaching here, or should I say over stretching.
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
(sent from bb)

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Kline <skline at peak.org>
Sender: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 08:38:24 
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Reply-To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Respect

I think I've offered quite a bit of respect, Chuck, during this 
discussion, including to Duaine.

I do think that the newer ETD machines are far superior to the old.

I still think that an aural understanding and ability to discern quality 
in a tuning
is a necessary skill for someone who has made piano tuning his or her 
life work. I often
hear tunings on professional recordings which I frankly disagree with, 
and these days
it seems likely that many have been done using state of the art digital 
equipment.

Older piano recordings, done in the 1930's or 1940's never exhibit these 
tuning problems,
even when one can hear that the temperaments are sometimes not 
conventionally equal.
The stretches are beautiful, and the unisons and voicing are usually 
superb. There is
warmth to the sound, there is a glow which can be heard, even through 
the primitive
recording techniques. Primitive in some ways, but they capture some 
beautiful aspects
of piano sound which often are lacking in later eras. So, I tip my hat 
to the piano
tuners of that time, many unknown, across the decades.

Our profession is about musical sounds, with a strong prerequisite of 
adequate
mechanical function. Avoiding a direct experience and understanding of 
musical sound
by delegating it completely to a machine while refusing to listen to it 
is never
going to achieve quality, IMO, because the attitude just isn't there. 
The beautiful
sounds are also our reward for what we do. What can one say about 
someone who refuses
to listen to them enough to understand them?

Susan Kline

On 1/29/2011 5:22 AM, Chuck Behm wrote:
> >The unadorned ETD tuning is not going to achieve quality - Susan Kline<
>
> Susan - I have utmost respect for your point of view and your ability 
> to tactfully present your ideas, but I must take exception to this 
> statement.
>
> I believe that the level of tuning attainable using a high quality ETD 
> is remarkable. Granted you need to master hammer technique, but to 
> flatly say that a quality tuning is not possible without understanding 
> aural tuning flies in the face of reality.
>
> The Veritune machine that I use performs calculations for each piano 
> that I tune that are far above what I could ever achieve aurally. To 
> begin with, it's measuring the vibration rate of each and every one of 
> the first eight partials of each string up to 100th of a cent. It then 
> matches those partials against the partials of the others strings and 
> uses logarithms to find the "sweet spot" where each string should be set.
>
> To top that off, the machine records all of this date, so that the 
> next time the piano is tuned, it has the information at its 
> fingertips, so to speak.
>
> Could I do all those calculations and keep track of it all in my head? 
> I would be as likely to be able to recite pi out to 1000 places 
> backwards from memory! It just isn't going to happen!
>
> I set the temperament of the piano using my Veritune machine, and tune 
> the unisons by ear to the temperament string. Being able to tune a 
> piano completely by ear, while a great talent to have, is not a 
> prerequisite to being able to do a great job of tuning.
>
> Please don't misunderstand me on this, Susan. An aural tuning done 
> well is a beautiful thing - the tuner is an artist and the piano is 
> her canvas. What you do is an art form of the highest level.
>
> But give those of us who use an ETD to tune the benefit of your 
> respect. I believe, after all, that simple respect is all that Duaine 
> is looking for here.   Chuck
>
> P.S. Saying all of that, I would also say that if one is going to use 
> an ETD to tune, it needs to be top-of-the-line equipment. Going to 
> Radio Shack and buying a $20 guitar tuner isn't going to cut it.