Marshall Gisondi Piano Technician Marshall's Piano Service pianotune05 at hotmail.com 215-510-9400 www.phillytuner.com Graduate of The School of Piano Technology for the Blind www.pianotuningschool.org Vancouver, WA From: pianotech-request at ptg.org Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 27, Issue 199 To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 00:29:36 -0700 Send pianotech mailing list submissions to pianotech at ptg.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pianotech-request at ptg.org You can reach the person managing the list at pianotech-owner at ptg.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of pianotech digest..." --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: tnrwim at aol.com To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 01:05:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Respect The first piano I ever tuned was in a store my dad used to own, but the new owner allowed me to tune one of the pianos. (it took me 8 hours). I was only 32 years old at the time. Several customer came in and basically made the comment, "You can't be a piano tuner unless you're 65 years old, and/or blind". Wim -----Original Message----- From: Mr. Mac's <tune-repair at allegiance.tv> To: piano <piano at a440.co.uk>; pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] Respect On Jan 29, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Barrie Heaton wrote: > … In the UK ETD are still looked on with the same scepticism as full sighted tuners were in the 1930 most folk thought back in the 1930 and still today in most parts of the UK if your not Blind you could not tune a pianos proper. … Wow, Barrie, that's some comparison. Personally, I hope the full sighted example back then is more myth than fact, and I certainly hope that isn't the case as you say in these modern times for the UK. I guess I'll never know the truth of such things without doing extensive research, which I'm fairly certain is not going to happen by me. Keith McGavern, RPT pianostuff.kamcam.com --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: jrpiano at eastlink.ca To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 02:55:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [pianotech] in response to a post On the false beat question. Rather than wondering if the ETD can 'read' it. Wouldn't it be better to try and get rid of the false beat? John Ross Windsor, Nova Scotia On 2011-01-30, at 1:13 AM, Marshall Gisondi wrote: Hi Chuck and others who esponded to my post. Thank you for the encouragement and great ideas. I've used some of them with customers. I'm also going to try a little telemarketing as well, residential listings. I'll let everyone know how things went. I did test it one day, and a guy answered. I said my name and that I'm a piano technician in the area. He said I have a joke fo ryou. the one we've all heard about tuning a piano and not a fish. So I figured, this might be interesting, calling people. so I'm curious. I asked earlier, but I'm not sure if my question reached you guys yet. Can an ETD pick up on false beats, and if so how does it handle them? What does it do with the harmonics in the bass? That picture with the hammer on the Walter, could the hammer flange screw be loose, twisted shank as mentioned, loose hammer head, flange misspaced when the screw was tightened? Back to EDTs, I knew of a guy when I first started to explore piano technology back in 04 who used a Peterson. Man that thing was huge. Have you guys used those? When he pulled the thing out, I was like what on earthis this thing? It was larger than my coffee maker. One other thing. I've only been to one convention so far while attending the school, but when I join the PTG and it will be soon as soon as the funding arrives, I sure hope and pray that nonsense bickering like we've seen on this list doesn't happen there especially since these conventions cost money. I'll demand a refund. lol Marshall Marshall Gisondi Piano Technician Marshall's Piano Service pianotune05 at hotmail.com 215-510-9400 www.phillytuner.com Graduate of The School of Piano Technology for the Blind www.pianotuningschool.org Vancouver, WA --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: skline at peak.org To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 23:14:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Counts ....... On 1/29/2011 1:54 PM, Bill Fritz wrote: Susan, you made the following statement (below). Let me make sure I understand you correctly...Okay When the "Tune-off" occurred between Jim Coleman Sr (ETD only) and Virgil Smith (Aural only)... the general conclusion was that the tunings were a tie... both times that they attempted this challenge. Right? yes I believe Jim Coleman Sr was using a SAT tuner... a generation or two behind today's RCT or Verituner or TuneLab (which is engineer speak for today's tuners being more comprehensive in their inharmonicity analyses). An ETD in the hands of Jim equaled the Aural tuning of Virgil's. So with Virgil being one of the premier aural tuners in his time, in what way was the ETD's tuning quality limited?In Jim's hands, it was very good. He knew how to get the best out of it. One assumes the pianos were very fine, also. When I said "with an unadorned ETD, quality will be limited" I was speaking to Duaine, who openly said that he is not an adequate aural tuner, and that in Jim's class he hadn't been able to hear the examples, and also that almost all his work is uprights. All these things suggest that he almost certainly would not be able to get the best out of an ETD when using it for poorly scaled pianos. And that was all I was saying. My own experience of this kind of tuning is limited to following two totally unqualified retiree "tuners" who bought ETD's and set up businesses. It was hard for me to believe that anyone could possibly turn out such horrible tunings! They were a public menace, and I doubt that the machines were to blame. I suspect they would make Duaine sound like a genius. To sum up: the quality is in the tuner, not the tuning aid. If the ear of the tuner is limited, and the pianos are challenging, then the quality gotten from the ETD is going to be limited. In some cases we've already heard from other tuners who say an ETD's tuning of a poorly designed spinet is better than the aural chasing of the same piano. They said that. I believe a couple others disagreed? It seems to me, it will depend partly on the quality of the ETD and the skill of its user, but mostly on the capacity of the aural tuner, which will end up sounding the best. Are you perhaps referring to an unlimited time period used to tune a Concert piano?...yes vs pounding out 4-5 pianos a day, 5-6 days a week? <shudder> I can partially understand your comments on the former, that's nice ... but certainly not the latter. I sincerely doubt that the bulk of RPT's punching out 4-5 pianos a day, 5-6 days a week can ensure their tuning would always pass the RPT Tuning test, like the ETD can facilitate. I don't think bulk tuning like that should have to pass anything like the RPT test standard. And finally, if the Tuning committees admit that using an ETD on all parts of the Tuning exam would yield scores approaching 100%... then how is that ETD tuning limited? What kind of piano is the test being held on? What I was trying to imply is that the ETD quality was going to be limited when someone with little knowledge of aural tuning was using it on troublesome cheap pianos on a day to day basis. Personally: I think there are several different issues being bounced around throughout this series of threads... 1) which can produce a better tuning -- ETD or Aural (I'll say both & neither... it depends on the hands & ears guiding the tuning hammer)yes 2) which method gives you a better "A440"? A tuning fork or an ETD? Let's take 100 of each, calibrate the forks & ETD's, and then over the next 2 months test the "A440"s tuned, under various temperatures, environments, etc. I'll bet $50 on the ETD.Pardon me, but in day to day work, even for concerts, within a cent or so, DOES IT MATTER?? 3) if both can produce very good tunings, then in light of the highest tuning importance being a) stability, then b) unisons, then c) octaves, then d) temperament... it would seem that it should be an individual's choice as to whether one could or should be an Aural vs ETD tuner, since stability & unisons are determined by the Technician's competence, rather than an argument of the ETD vs the 4:2 stretch.Of course it's an individual's choice, assuming they can produce good results 4) if one could pass the RPT Tuning test w/ an ETD (and at least understand the concepts & why's of beats & 4:2's etc), then why doesn't the PTG allow a 100% ETD test?You can ask the people who set up the tests. But, like I said above, the power to use an ETD at 100% test level on a good grand in a test situation may not guarantee adequate use of one in less than ideal conditions. Even so, it's up to the Guild. Perhaps the aural tuning part is a way to test the level of dedication to the profession? That someone is willing to put in the training time to be competent in traditional tuning? You can ask them. Perhaps there is still some feeling that someone should be able to manage a simple tuning even if the batteries happen to be low? 5) if both RPT's & Associates both pay the same dues, when why is one group "Taxed without Representation"?I thought about this a little back when I was an Associate. I assume it's to try to get them to undergo the ordeal of the testing. It doesn't seem to be the most effective motivation so far. 6) if new tools become available which can equal or surpass "the test", then why are we completing the test the old way? (I'm sure as heck not going back to cursive writing... typing is far superior for me.)I am getting very tired of hearing all about the test .... isn't your universe any larger than the PTG testing procedures? 7) if we are going to be considered "professionals" like Issac Stein mentioned in his recent PTJ editorial... a) why are RPT's not being re-tested on a regular basis... like the Professional Engineers & their licenses (every 2-4 years, depending on the State) he refers to? And b) why no "continuing education requirements" such as Natl or Regional PTG conventions or minimum number of Chapter Technicals attended for an RPT to maintain their "status"? Teachers & Engineers have these requirements... as well as other "professions". Do you really want to be more like a plumber? For me, one great advantage of piano technology is its unlicensed unregulated nature, which allows each person to decide their own way of doing business. Do you want to throw that away, and have everyone following onerous rules and having to undergo expensive retesting and continuing education as a requirement before they can work? 8) if today's RPT Tuning tests are indeed what anyone must pass to become an RPT... then how is that status impacted by Jim Coleman Sr's statement in the Tuning Examination Source Book foreward (reprint 2002) "We set our scoring and tolerance system so that 80 percent of our present members (Craftsman) would pass at a grade of 80 percent"... implying that 20% of those remaining grandfathered RPT's would fail today's test... A little mercy, perhaps? And the realization that if the testing and continuous education requirements become difficult and annoying, members will leave in droves. Tuners are independent cusses, and I like it that way. So Susan, other than trying to understand your "ETD's are limited" comment... Just PUT IT BACK IN CONTEXT, please. People seem to have taken one look at that, and freaked right out. ETD's are limited by the competence of the people using them. Do you find that so impossible to agree with? I also wanted to put on paper the other sub-issues I think I hear... and that should be addressed if this PTG organization is to grow & improve. Continuous Process Improvement. Similar to the piano itself... a Technician is either improving themselves, or going downhill. "What are you doing for your own improvement, lately?" If you try to standardize this ongoing improvement, and then force people to conform, you may find the PTG ends up shrinking instead of growing. At its best, good tuning is an art form, and doesn't submit to regimentation very well. PS A hearty THANK YOU for this pianotech group's comments, arguments, and thoughts: I have certainly appreciate each & every constructive opinion on the various topics... and I for one appreciate the sharing of info & wisdom by the many. It helps me to become a better Technician. Best Regards... Bill Fritz, St LouisAnd to you ... Susan Kline, small town in Oregon From: Susan Kline <skline at peak.org> To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Counts .......Duaine Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 00:17:04 -0800 SNIP>> Everyone here has said the same thing over and over: the ETD tuning quality is limited unless you have the aural capacity to see whether or not the machine is giving you what it should. There are many circumstances where what the ETD tells you has to be adjusted for the particular piano you are tuning. --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: skline at peak.org To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 23:24:00 -0800 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Respect On 1/29/2011 2:15 PM, Ron Koval wrote: I believe that it is the slower beating intervals that lead the way to this goal... I set octaves to where I think they are the best, and I also check fourths and fifths (below, usually, at least in the treble, above in the bass, of course) all the way to the very top and bottom of the piano. I think if the octave stretch works very well, and the fourths and fifths are all as good as the stretch and the Pythagorean Comma allow, the tuning will have great clarity and evenness. Tempering between fourths, fifths, and octaves during the whole process weaves all the notes into a web of the scale as we go, and also tends to even out minor discrepancies of the temperament and scaling. One can see this clarity by playing open chords (octaves with fifths or fourths inside them, but no thirds.) If those are ALL good and lucid, then something very right is happening with the tuning. So, yes, I agree, the slower beating intervals are gold. Susan --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: skline at peak.org To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 23:29:33 -0800 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Counts ....... On 1/29/2011 2:48 PM, Conrad Hoffsommer wrote: Why does this feel like a religious war? Aren't we all proud that these "discussions" are googleable by any and all forever and ever? Conrad Hoffsommer Conrad, you're sure one size truly fits all? I'll take five, please, you choose the colors. s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20110130/e11c5948/attachment.htm>
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