[pianotech] 102 keys and 4 pedals???

[Encore Pianos]

Hi Ron:

I certainly meant no offense to you or anyone else  by using the term
propeller head, I did not mean it to be a derogatory term.   I have had a
fascination with piano design my whole working life, so I would have to
include myself in that group.  If you took offense at that, I apologize.

I would be grateful if you could describe to me exactly what you mean when
you speak of a classic overdriven soundboard.  I would like to know what you
mean rather than what I  think you mean, so I hope you will elaborate more
fully.  

The recordings I have heard of this piano have always left me with the
feeling that it sounds like a soundboard that has no downbearing, which
seems to be true.  It lacks excitement and dynamism, and has a very linear
sound at all volume levels.  Or at least that's my experience of it.  

http://www.stuartandsons.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69
&Itemid=76
Click on Gallery, then video, then on the construction video about half
through is a brief partial view of the bottom of the soundboard and the
lattice construction of which Ron speaks.  

Or copy and paste this link and see if it takes you there.
http://www.stuartandsons.com/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=detail&c
atid=1:videos-nl&id=72:constructionvideo&tmpl=component&Itemid=73

Since I spent a fair amount of time with the Steingraeber Phoenix at Larry's
shop, I was able to have more firsthand reactions.  I asked several people
to play various kinds of music and step up and down the loudness ladder.
There was another large Steingraeber grand next to it, I actually preferred
the sound of the Phoenix.  But that was in part due to the fact that it was
much better voiced than the other.  

I wasn't able to take any measurements off the piano, so everything I noted
was eyeball measure.  While the top of the soundboard was the black weave of
the carbon fiber, there was a somewhat thick veneer of spruce on the
underside, with what appeared to be  a "normal" compliment of ribs glued to
it.  The ribs appeared to be "normal" in width and height - it looked like a
traditional Steingraeber on the underside.  Lacking measurements for either
piano, I can only tell you what was presented to my eyes.  I think Larry
told me this piano had "some" downbearing, but (again) I cannot quantify it.
Certainly this soundboard and ribbing is more substantial than what you
describe for the Stuart.  

It also sounded like a piano lacking in downbearing, and was somewhat linear
in its sound.  To the extent that I can compare a recording with a live
hearing, it was a better instrument than the Stuart.  It's strengths were
many, even with the deficits I heard.  I also heard a "warble" overtone on
almost all the notes throughout the compass.  That was not audible in light
playing, but became more audible and intrusive as the volume increased.
That was a disappointment to me, because it stepped on the good things that
I was hearing out of the piano.  I attributed that to leakage at the agraffe
termination, I don't know what else it could be - there was nothing but good
workmanship in the construction and the board seemed intact.  

It would have been interesting to have the opportunity to hear a carbon
fiber board with a traditionally notched and pinned bridge and, conversely,
to hear a Dain agraffed bridge on a traditional spruce boart.  This would
allow me to separate my first hearing of a Dain bridge agraffe from my first
hearing of a carbon fiber soundboard, so as to have a better sense of where
certain things I was hearing were coming from.  Both have been done, I just
have not heard them.   

Will 

 


-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 9:53 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] 102 keys and 4 pedals???

On 11/4/2012 6:28 AM, Encore Pianos wrote:
> Terry, I find your comment most interesting.  I have not heard the 
> Stuart in person but have listened to recordings of it on CD as well 
> as recordings off their website.  I suspect that what Terry hears is a 
> deficit with this design - it gets "overloaded" (if you will) on more 
> powerful playing.  I don't believe that this  comes from the board but 
> rather the insecurity of the termination.  I have listened to many 
> recordings off the website, which are typically played at lower volume 
> levels and can be lovely.  But push it a bit and zingy overtones rear 
> their ugly head - I think I have been hearing what Terry is talking 
> about in his comments below.

When I got the chance to go to Australia a few years back (I WANT it!), I
got to spend time on and under two of these pianos. What Terry describes is
a classic over driven soundboard. The pianos I saw both did the same thing
on anything above moderate attack levels. They were each one full compass
killer octave, which impressed me. I wouldn't have thought that possible
until I heard it for myself. Crawling underneath and looking around, the
workmanship is as good as there is. The rim is hugely massive, and the
soundboard assembly is the flimsiest I've ever seen by far. Underneath, the
board looks like a Japanese room divider, a lightweight rectangular grid
supporting a thin membrane. No supporting ribs, no crown, no net positive
down bearing. I think the mass of the agraffes is the only thing that makes
these pianos playable at even low attack levels. Why this was done, and why
it is allowed to remain as a design approach is still a mystery to me.


> Recently, I  had the good fortune to listen a 7' 6" Steingraeber at 
> Larry Buck's shop in Haverhill, MA.  I was able to put my hand on it, 
> and listened to several people play it a varying volume levels as well.
> This piano has a carbon fiber soundboard and the Dain bridge agraffes 
> throughout.  To a lesser degree (in my guestimation)  it suffered the 
> same issues as Terry describes - although there was much to like about 
> it too.

I haven't had a chance to really explore a carbon board Steingraeber in a
quiet room. Exposition hall at the height of the crowd stampede isn't
awfully conducive to detailed listening, but if they exhibit similar
characteristics it will be for similar reasons. The agraffe design
(essentially the same, as you note) on both pianos provide good solid
terminations, so I doubt the agraffes are responsible for the high attack
level distortion. My call is insufficient soundboard stiffness.


> We have a number of piano design propeller heads out there.

I don't understand why anyone interested in science and tech has to be
labeled with a derogatory term. My head certainly has no propeller, only
rocks.
Ron N