Thank you for the demystification, Horace. Horace Greeley wrote: > Hi, Jim, > > On 2/25/2013 8:10 PM, Jim Moy wrote: >> No, because running a server that you control is quite beyond the >> scope of simply administering the control panel of a hosted listserv. > > I respectfully disagree in part. > > If one chooses to own one's own hardware, provide software, do the > installation, server management/maintenance, and all the other cruft > that goes along with it, the you are correct... > > On the other hand, if one chooses to contract with one's ISP, or other > service provider, for the provision of the base server and its related > software, then the main choices one has to make (if one is using > "mailman", anyway) is does one prefer to have a "closed" or an "open" > list...that is, does the administrator(s) choose to have to personally > act on every subscription request, or, do they allow the built-in > controls in the mailman application to handle those basic chores for > them. If the contract is properly written, the service provider even > backs up both the data and the server, so that there is a level of > service provided that is not available with either Facebook or > Google. Other than that, the primary responsibility of the > administrator(s) would be to be in reasonable contact with the service > provider when users report things like spam/etc to see what can be > blocked by the co-located spam/AV software. > > Only FWIW, from watching and reading these discussions as they have > come and gone over the last couple of years, and (hopefully) putting > politics aside, shutting off something as antique and low-tech as > mailman in favor of any replacement (whether HL, Facebook, Google, > what-have-you) that requires relatively fast end-user machines with at > least ADSL2+ or broadband connections for the web interfaces to work > properly automatically cuts off many of the very users who have not > only contributed much to the profession over time, but who also either > have slow connections (the U.S. is now #10 in the "industrialized > west" for internet connection speed and reliability), or slow > machines, or both, or who don't have the time to spend waiting while > the latest version of Java downloads and installs so that the ads on > the page can display. > > This really isn't rocket science...nowhere close. Frankly, it's so > easy and cost effective (as opposed to all of the other solutions > which have been suggested so far), that I'm only surprised that no one > has pointed out that the very simple and ultimately easiest solution > is simply to start up another mailman instance with another service > provider. The base server doesn't have to be very large...an old PIV > running virtually any semi-modern version of Linux can run mailman in > about 4 Gb RAM. The whole archive for both pianotech and the old caut > list is under 150MB in (compressed) size...and, looking quickly at my > "attachments" directories, even if the now-removed attachments are > somehow magically replaced, there would be only 15 - 20 Gb storage > required to hold the whole thing. Even if this were to be put up in > some portion of the Amazon S3 cloud, this kind of thing might run as > much as $25/month to run 24/7/365...even if it turned out to be > $50/month, that's only $600/year...or, call it $1,000 per year to be > conservative. While I run a number of Linux and other OSes on > different boxes for different purposes, for things like this I rely on > my ISP and/or one of the Amazon cloud-based services to handle web, > mail, and database servers rather than trying to maintain production > equipment myself. It's far more cost effective and makes much more > efficient use of my own time and energy. It's also cheap. > > It's really very, very simple. Properly configured, mailman is > effectively self-contained and reliant. Mail comes in and goes out. > Attachments are properly delivered with the appropriate EM. After > their initial subscription, users do not have to sign in, wait for > web pages, click on multiple links to where they are going, and, don't > get lost in a maze of sub-menus/groups/etc. Archives can be be > created automagically. It just works. If the supporting services are > contracted with a competent service provider, the human input to the > whole system is minimal. > > Paul's question is the right one to be asking; and, the direct answer > is that, as noted above, it depends on which of the above-noted routes > one takes. Basically, there's no competent technical or budgetary > reason to throw this list under the bus. > > Anyway, I'm just surprised that no one has suggested this previously. > > Kind regards. > > Horace > > >> Jim >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 8:11 PM, paul bruesch <paul at bruesch.net >> <mailto:paul at bruesch.net>> wrote: >> >> Wouldn't it be just as easy to run a mailman listserver? OK, maybe >> not, but... >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Jim Moy <jim at moypiano.com >> <mailto:jim at moypiano.com>> wrote: >> >> A perfectly valid objection to the "cloud computing" way of >> things. >> >> If the pianotech run on Google servers goes away some day, how >> can you guarantee its contents were preserved for the future, >> in the way we are able with the Mailman list archives on the >> server we control? >> >> It seems like it would be a good idea to set up a machine >> subscriber to the Google Group that automatically stores the >> emails it receives in an archive that is under our control... >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Susan Kline <skline at peak.org >> <mailto:skline at peak.org>> wrote: >> >> There's something else -- I don't trust the likes of >> Google or Yahoo at all, even though >> I'm part of a big Yahoo group. And Facebook --- why not >> just let a bunch of corporate >> jackals into your private home, unlock everything, let >> them take whatever they want >> and piss on the rest? >> >> Susan, now getting old and cranky >> >> Terry Beckingham wrote: >>> Well, I thought I had Google groups figured out, but I >>> guess I was wrong. >>> >>> It appears that the only way I can send to Google groups >>> is to go onto the web and log into my Google account and >>> send from there. >>> >>> I don't like going to the web if I don't have to, because >>> I do not have high speed. I use Eudora for my email and >>> everything comes directly into my Eudora. I can have >>> Google forward from my Gmail account to my other address, >>> but I can't send to Google groups from my Eudora. >>> >>> Am I missing something here? Is there a way to send from >>> my Eudora to Google groups without logging onto my Google >>> account on the web? >>> >>> I'm frustrated. >>> >>> Terry Beckingham >>> >>> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/20130225/5150f2c3/attachment-0001.htm>
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