[pianotech] Google groups (Horace)

[Paul McCloud]

Thanks, Susan:
I think Horace has a handle on what needs to be done, so now we have a direction.  Obviously, we need some kind of service provider (ISP) so that the emails can be disseminated, so Horace can look into that.  The real issue is the cost involved, and who's going to pay.  PTG doesn't want to do it, which is why it's going away.  They don't see the need to spend an extra $30k  on something that they feel has already been superseded by HL.  Even if we can do it for a fraction of the cost, it will be on us to find a way to fund it.  Getting the PTG to do it isn't going to happen.  To move forward, we need some hard numbers.  Either we hire somebody to set up the system or go to Sonic or whatever.  And then, we'll have to volunteer, or take turns or? to oversee the day to day spam filtering and admin.  
Once we get a handle on the cost involved, in real terms, then we will have to decide if we want to cough up the dough to make it happen.  
Paul McCloud
San DIego


----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Kline" <skline at peak.org>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:15:52 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Google groups (Horace)

Hi, Paul, everyone ... Horace answered you yesterday evening, but accidentally sent to me 
instead of to the list. He can't get to a computer till mid-morning, so late (too late) last night he 
asked me to forward his reply to pianotech. -- Susan 

------------------------- 
Hi, Paul, 

Yes...I'm semi-sorry to say that I could/can do that myself. What makes more sense to me is to have some ISP set up and manage the server, and then have some TBD person(s) act as administrators to setup mailman and then to populate it with the archives from the existing instance. 

Missing, unless they were to be made available by the guild, would be the attachments. I'm sure that many of us collectively have most of that stuff available...just not necessarily connected to the correct original post. 

While for many things I really like Amazon Web Services, I think the best location for something of this nature is a real-time ISP. There are thousands around the country, many with very competitive rates. The advantage of this route is that all of the support of the physical server and its OS and related software is managed by the ISP, leaving someone else largely only having to worry about the mailman application and things related to it. If you're wondering where $30K has been going, it's for too few people to manage too few boxes...there's no economy of scale and it looks like pianotech has been taking a hit for about 50% of someone's salary...from a business perspective, that's clearly unsustainable. What's inexplicable/illogical is why this wasn't contracted out years ago...but, that's another topic for another time. 

I'm happy to check with the ISP I use; or, someone else can...doesn't matter. I've used Sonic.net for over 15 years and always been pleased with their services costs. There may be other places that are cheaper and/or better. 

Anyway, thanks for your kind words, Paul. I'm speaking up because I hate to see what appears to be so many people effectively cut off or opting out when there is no real need and the options proferred really don't provide the same service for the same amount of end-user effort. 

Kind regards 

Horace 




Paul McCloud wrote: 

Hi, Horace:
Well, it seems you understand the software and technical details enough to be able to set it up and get it going.  You wouldn't, um, be able to, ah, jump in and, say, start it up again?  Ok, ok, just askin'
I don't understand why PTG has to just throw it away, since it's working now.  If it's run from a dedicated machine in the home office (which it sounds like it is), can't we just purchase it and have it set up somewhere else?  Where it is doesn't matter.  If it takes an expert IT guy to get it up and running again, I know a few myself that could do it blindfolded.  My website is hosted by my webmaster on his own machines, so it can be done.  If the home office is just going to pull the plug and heave the server out the window, why we don't just dive in the dumpster and get it?  What am I missing?
Anybody ask Andy Rudoff about this?  It was his system after all.  He created it, and maintained it, so he might be willing to give some expert advice on it.  Anybody know how to contact him?  
Paul McCloud
SAn Diego


----- Original Message -----
From: "Horace Greeley" <hgreeley at sonic.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:26:35 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Google groups

Hi, Jim,

On 2/25/2013 8:10 PM, Jim Moy wrote: 

No, because running a server that you control is quite beyond the 
scope of simply administering the control panel of a hosted listserv. I respectfully disagree in part.

If one chooses to own one's own hardware, provide software, do the 
installation, server management/maintenance, and all the other cruft 
that goes along with it, the you are correct...

On the other hand, if one chooses to contract with one's ISP, or other 
service provider, for the provision of the base server and its related 
software, then the main choices one has to make (if one is using 
"mailman", anyway) is does one prefer to have a "closed" or an "open" 
list...that is, does the administrator(s) choose to have to personally 
act on every subscription request, or, do they allow the built-in 
controls in the mailman application to handle those basic chores for 
them.  If the contract is properly written, the service provider even 
backs up both the data and the server, so that there is a level of 
service provided that is not available with either Facebook or Google.  
Other than that, the primary responsibility of the administrator(s) 
would be to be in reasonable contact with the service provider when 
users report things like spam/etc to see what can be blocked by the 
co-located spam/AV software.

Only FWIW, from watching and reading these discussions as they have come 
and gone over the last couple of years, and (hopefully) putting politics 
aside, shutting off something as antique and low-tech as mailman in 
favor of any replacement (whether HL, Facebook, Google, what-have-you) 
that requires relatively fast end-user machines with at least ADSL2+ or 
broadband connections for the web interfaces to work properly 
automatically cuts off many of the very users who have not only 
contributed much to the profession over time, but who also either have 
slow connections (the U.S. is now #10 in the "industrialized west" for 
internet connection speed and reliability), or slow machines, or both, 
or who don't have the time to spend waiting while the latest version of 
Java downloads and installs so that the ads on the page can display.

This really isn't rocket science...nowhere close.  Frankly, it's so easy 
and cost effective (as opposed to all of the other solutions which have 
been suggested so far), that I'm only surprised that no one has pointed 
out that the very simple and ultimately easiest solution is simply to 
start up another mailman instance with another service provider.  The 
base server doesn't have to be very large...an old PIV running virtually 
any semi-modern version of Linux can run mailman in about 4 Gb RAM.  The 
whole archive for both pianotech and the old caut list is under 150MB in 
(compressed) size...and, looking quickly at my "attachments" 
directories, even if the now-removed attachments are somehow magically 
replaced, there would be only 15 - 20 Gb storage required to hold the 
whole thing.  Even if this were to be put up in some portion of the 
Amazon S3 cloud, this kind of thing might run as much as $25/month to 
run 24/7/365...even if it turned out to be $50/month, that's only 
$600/year...or, call it $1,000 per year to be conservative.  While I run 
a number of Linux and other OSes on different boxes for different 
purposes, for things like this I rely on my ISP and/or one of the Amazon 
cloud-based services to handle web, mail, and database servers rather 
than trying to maintain production equipment myself.  It's far more cost 
effective and makes much more efficient use of my own time and energy.  
It's also cheap.

It's really very, very simple.  Properly configured, mailman is 
effectively self-contained and reliant.  Mail comes in and goes out.  
Attachments are properly delivered with the appropriate EM.  After their 
initial subscription,  users do not have to sign in, wait for web pages, 
click on multiple links to where they are going, and, don't get lost in 
a maze of sub-menus/groups/etc.  Archives can be be created 
automagically.  It just works.  If the supporting services are 
contracted with a competent service provider, the human input to the 
whole system is minimal.

Paul's question is the right one to be asking; and, the direct answer is 
that, as noted above, it depends on which of the above-noted routes one 
takes.  Basically, there's no competent technical or budgetary reason to 
throw this list under the bus.

Anyway, I'm just surprised that no one has suggested this previously.

Kind regards.

Horace 

Jim


On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 8:11 PM, paul bruesch < paul at bruesch.net <mailto:paul at bruesch.net> > wrote:

    Wouldn't it be just as easy to run a mailman listserver? OK, maybe
    not, but...


    On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Jim Moy < jim at moypiano.com <mailto:jim at moypiano.com> > wrote:

        A perfectly valid objection to the "cloud computing" way of
        things.

        If the pianotech run on Google servers goes away some day, how
        can you guarantee its contents were preserved for the future,
        in the way we are able with the Mailman list archives on the
        server we control?

        It seems like it would be a good idea to set up a machine
        subscriber to the Google Group that automatically stores the
        emails it receives in an archive that is under our control...


        On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Susan Kline < skline at peak.org <mailto:skline at peak.org> > wrote:

            There's something else -- I don't trust the likes of
            Google or Yahoo at all, even though
            I'm part of a big Yahoo group. And Facebook --- why not
            just let a bunch of corporate
            jackals into your private home, unlock everything, let
            them take whatever they want
            and piss on the rest?

            Susan, now getting old and cranky

            Terry Beckingham wrote: 

Well, I thought I had Google groups figured out, but I
            guess I was wrong.

            It appears that the only way I can send to Google groups
            is to go onto the web and log into my Google account and
            send from there.

            I don't like going to the web if I don't have to, because
            I do not have high speed. I use Eudora for my email and
            everything comes directly into my Eudora. I can have
            Google forward from my Gmail account to my other address,
            but I can't send to Google groups from my Eudora.

            Am I missing something here? Is there a way to send from
            my Eudora to Google groups without logging onto my Google
            account on the web?

            I'm frustrated.

            Terry Beckingham