[pianotech] real costs of running a listserv list

[Paul McCloud]

Andy:
Thanks for jumping in.  I hope everyone is listening, because these considerations are going to affect the decision to keep Mailman or some other ware, or keep going in the Google direction.
Based upon your statement, I just have to scratch my head over the decision to totally pull the plug on the old list.  If it's working ok now, with some volunteers overseeing it, why is it being unplugged?  Somebody's figure of $30k/yr somehow doesn't fit.  I wouldn't want to call it the "L" word, but we would need to know exactly who or what is costing that much.  And if it's only $50/mo. plus volunteers, what in the world is the problem with having both HL and the old system running side by side?
You know, I'm really not talking to you directly, but just ruminating over all of this.
Anyway, Andy, we owe 'ya one, pal.  From your efforts, I've become a much better technician than I would have otherwise, and have a lot more friends too.
Take it easy.
Paul McCLoud
San Diego  

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rudoff" <andy at rudoff.com>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:41:44 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] real costs of running a listserv list







I haven't been paying close attention to the latest discussion on the fate of pianotech, but the mention of my name woke me up and I thought I'd provide some facts about cost. Hopefully this is helpful. 

I have no idea where a number like $30k came from but remember that the PTG server was used for quite a few things, like paying dues and registering conventions, the PTG store, etc. Every time someone submitted a transaction, it was sent to someone at the home office to deal with it. So it is possible that their time, as well as the time of volunteers who ran the server, contributed to the large cost someone quoted. Not sure. 

I can tell you the cost of a server that does nothing more than run a single mailman list is pretty low, on the order of $20-$50 per month (the range is because some of the cheaper providers disallow mailman lists with more than a few members because they don't want to deal with the issues large lists bring). 

So the hardware and software costs are quite small. As Paul nicely covers below, the main costs are man-power. Simple stuff, like helping people subscribe/unsubscribe, checking to see if messages get caught in spam filters, etc. can be handled by volunteers. Pick a small group of volunteers who are motivated (i.e. want the list) and try not to burn them out by rotating the responsibility, and it is self-sustaining. 

The harder part is when something breaks. Because there are spammers in the world, many major ISPs try to detect them and cut them off. The PTG list is large enough that this has happened to us a number of times and it takes some fairly deep knowledge of how sys admin skills to get it fixed. So you'd want someone (like Jim Moy -- ha, ha, sorry Jim!) to agree to handle those things when they come up. 

Another consideration is that mailman doesn't get much attention these days. It was written before multimedia attachments were so common and it really doesn't handle them well at all. So by keeping the list on mailman, you are deciding to stick with a basic, plain text mailing list (perhaps fine, but you should be conscious of this decision). 










Google Groups is a modern solution, capable of everything that mailman could do but perhaps doing some things slightly differently. But it handles multimedia well, is searchable, etc. Best of all, someone else is maintaining it. If I were tasked with creating pianotech today, I would give it serious consideration. 


Not that anyone is asking for my advice, but I'll offer it anyway. In my years in the PTG I found it to consist of good-hearted, intelligent, well-meaning people who do often have differing opinions like any group. I'd encourage people to try to get the pianotech community back together as a whole community. I felt very bad when it splintered. One way to do that is for everyone to jump on the HL system and make do with the drawbacks, then over time continue to try to correct the issues. Another way is to pick something very low overhead and easy to use like Google Groups. The upfront expense of keeping the mailman list running is not large, but I think you'll end up re-visiting how to keep it running again and again as these other systems continue to evolve and improve. 

Hope that helps, 



-andy 


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Paul McCloud < pmc033 at earthlink.net > wrote: 


Hi Jim: 
Ok, so aside from hosting and servers and such, all we're looking at are some admin duties and someone setting it up. I'm just trying to understand a ballpark quote for all of this. Once we understand the investment necessary to start, then we can have a debate over GoogleGroup vs Listserv. So far, there is the price ($0.00) of GoogleGroups, with the uncertainty of ownership, web bots crawling over our list looking for marketable tidbits, and the boogeyman. Then, we have he private server scenario, which is more secure, more controllable, and more (fill in the blank). Once the benefits and liabilities are understood, we can do a poll and see which way we want to go. 
In a way, since JD owns the GoogleGroup forum, he could pull the plug if he wanted to. Suppose he disappears? Then what becomes of it? 
Another question is, who would be the new owner of a new "PianoTeck" list? It's a shame that the home office and the Board has decided to nix it, since the natural home for it IS the home office. That option is off the table now, so now, what entity (person or orgnization) is going to take charge? There must be some ongoing overseer and backup person in place so that it is maintained in perpetuity. That was the role that Andy Rudoff played, and we need someone or someone(s)to take his place. That person or group will also need to be responsible for training volunteers to run the operation day-to-day. 
Anyway, these are questions that we need an answer to, and sooner than later. Without these questions being answered, we can't offer any alternative to GoogleGroups. We at least have GGroups for now. 
Just my thoughts. 
Paul McCloud 

San Diego 


----- Original Message ----- 


From: "Jim Moy" < jim at moypiano.com > 
To: "Pianotech List" < pianotech at ptg.org > 
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:43:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [pianotech] real costs of running a listserv list 




On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Paul McCloud < pmc033 at earthlink.net > wrote: 


We owe a lot to Andy Rudoff for bearing all the costs ... Whether he had to pay $850 a year, well, we'd have to ask him about that. 



Mailman is free (GPL) software, so there is no monetary licensing cost. Same with the pipermail archiving component. And, of course, the LAMP stack on which it all runs.