<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=windows-1250"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2604" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><STRONG>Phil Bondi wrote;</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>> Alan, I've tuned 3 pianos since I received this 'tip' = about tuning D3 <BR>> after A4, and yes, from my brief rookie experience = with this method, <BR>> this 12th may need to be less than perfect in order for = it to fit.<BR>> <BR>> Subjects used:<BR>> <BR>> Boston GP = 163<BR>> S&S Upright 45<BR>> Yamaha G1<BR>> <BR>> I had a problem = with the Upright, but the other 2 were clean.<BR></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><STRONG>Don't tune it a perfect 12th. Include it in your = temperament as a 12th. I was in the middle of replying to Alan Barnard's first post on = this but I will post it here half finished as it were. Don't confuse Richard Brekne's  post  on P12ths with mine which was about the = importance of D3. </STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Alan Barnard wrote;</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG> </STRONG> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><STRONG><SPAN class=906082102-06042005>>>>>"S</SPAN>ince most = temperaments work well with about 1/2 beat narrow D4-A4 fifth and likewise with about a = 1/2 beat wide D3-D4 octave, if you tuned D3 to A4 absolutely beatless (at A5) you = would have two notes (in a two octave temperament) that were dead-on and = accounting for inharminicity across the break in most pianos<SPAN class=906082102-06042005> </SPAN></STRONG></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><STRONG>Then, tuning A3 to A4, and = D4 to D3 while checking the fourths and fifths created among those four notes = you'd be pretty confident you had four solidly and rather easily placed = notes.<SPAN class=906082102-06042005> </SPAN></STRONG></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><STRONG>Anything wrong with = this?<SPAN class=906082102-06042005> ">>>></SPAN></STRONG></SPAN>= </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>Nothing wrong with the strategy, = but I don't tune D3 to A4 beatless at A5. I tune them at 1 beat per second at A5 = because A3 to D4 and D4 to A4 are 1bps. All three of the above mentioned intervals have their common coincident partial at A5. This is the = most fundamental beat rate of equal temperament. It's very easy to achieve = if you reference it with your watch.</STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>Now, to me at any rate, making the = two 5ths intervals that you have in your bearing scale match up with each other = will reinforce the 3rd partial which just happens to be the most harmonic = of the partial series and the loudest. It's this reinforcing of the 3rd = partial that makes the piano sing. Don't forget also that the 5th is the most = common interval in music. Of course there may be many of you who will say I'm = talking absolute crap.</STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN = class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>If the beat rate can't slow down to 1bps at A5 for the interval D3 to A4 = without incurring a howl in the A3 to A4 octave, then you know you have a real lousy scale design on your hands. I have a sneaky feeling = that this is why manufacturers tend to avoid wound strings as much as possible = and favour the much maligned low tension alternative in the lower tenor. = But I digress!</STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>When you get to the other notes in = your bearing scale, treat their respective 5th intervals as you would when comparing 3rds i.e. a smooth progression. So for instance when = you are tuning E3 to B4, you must listen to the B5 coincident partial and not = the B4 fundamental. Going up to a higher plane as it were gives you twice the = accuracy and double the beat rate to make it easier to make your = judgement; in this case the beat rate will be just slightly faster than 1bps.</STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN = class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV></B= LOCKQUOTE><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><STRONG>>>> = "Now, find me a similar exercise for nailing down F3 or F4 (NOT estimating beat rates) = and I'd be one excited camper, because after that a two octave temperament = (C3-B4 for the RPT tuning test) would be pretty easy.<SPAN = class=906082102-06042005> " >>></SPAN></STRONG></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>Keep in mind the basic 1bps rate. = Any 5th interval you tune above your D3 to A4 starting point will be progressively faster than 1bps listening at their respective 5th = partial coincidents. Any 5th interval you tune above the D4 to A5 interval = should beat progressively faster than 1bps listening at their respective 3rd = partial conincidents. Likewise with the corresponding 4th intervals; your = starting point is A4 to D4 which in equal temperament terms should beat at 1bps = listening at the same A5 coincident partial. Any 4th intervals tuned = below should have a progressive beat rate of slightly less than 1bps. Any = 4ths you tune above this point should increase progressively faster than 1bps. = Now your F's are slap bang in the middle of all this humdingaloo...........and = the beat goes on. </STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>End of part 1. Episode 2 may follow = if time allows.</STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN class=906082102-06042005><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=000552602-05042005><SPAN = class=906082102-06042005><STRONG>AF</STRONG></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN= ></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>----- Original Message ----- </STRONG> <DIV><STRONG>From: "Phil Bondi" <</STRONG><A href="mailto:phil@philbondi.com"><STRONG>phil@philbondi.com</STRONG></A= ><STRONG>></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>To: "Pianotech" <</STRONG><A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org"><STRONG>pianotech@ptg.org</STRONG></A><= STRONG>></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:55 AM</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Subject: Re: Hey, Aural Gurus ...</STRONG></DIV></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><BR></STRONG></DIV><STRONG>> <BR>> <BR>> = <BR>>>I'm still curious about the P12th D3-A4 bit, though. Is the logic correct or<BR>>>would different pianos require a, shall we say, = less-than-perfect 12th?<BR>>>  <BR>>><BR>> Alan, I've tuned 3 pianos = since I received this 'tip' about tuning D3 <BR>> after A4, and yes, from my = brief rookie experience with this method, <BR>> this 12th may need to be = less than perfect in order for it to fit.<BR>> <BR>> Subjects used:<BR>> = <BR>> Boston GP 163<BR>> S&S Upright 45<BR>> Yamaha G1<BR>> = <BR>> I had a problem with the Upright, but the other 2 were clean.<BR>> = <BR>> -Phil Bondi(Fl)<BR>> <BR>> <BR>></STRONG></BODY></HTML>