<html> <body> Hi Andre, I think the problem here is confusing tuning softly as opposed to giving a test blow to make sure it stays. Right? Avery At 12:36 PM 10/26/04, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Just a few things here : First of all, I tried to tell here that when we strike a note very hard, the emphasis lies on the higher partials. I have tried this out on my ETD partial analysis, and indeed it shows that the higher partials are more present with this hard blow. This causes us to listen to strings in a different way and the result we may find in the unisons : hitting the strings with a not so hard blow will result in a more coarse, more rich sound. Hitting the strings very hard will result in a unison which sounds thin, rather short in length and unsatisfactory. Basically we can hear a real difference if we hit VERY hard, like what concert tuners do daily, or just less hard but still in a firm manner. The last one requires a very good tuning technique and it definitely requires from the tuner to put his hammer ALWAYS into the direction of the tail in the very first place. second : we should not confuse hard or soft blows with the way we listen to, and perceive, piano sounds. A hard or softer blow literally defines - more or less - the presence of higher or lower overtones. The way we perceive piano sounds, and the way we choose to enrich and power our unisons defines the difference between piano tuners in general. The example I gave here of a technician working on a beautiful concert grand, who made ugly (to my ears!) unisons, shows that indeed your unison is not necessarily my unison. After my initial ear opening experience, I often experimented with colleagues on the very same instrument, just to find out whether their 'tone' was different from mine, and indeed, the unisons I re-tuned sounded completely different. Lastly : to those who tried out the hard versus soft blow but had no result, I say this : The best 'place' on a piano to try this out, is in the first treble section, just next (on right of)  to the wound bass strings. This section is usually very sonorous  and rich sounding. Just take one unison and re-rune it, but this time with tremendous blows, as if your life depends on it, just like the professional life of a concert tuner who depends on his rock steady unisons ok? If you do this, you will clearly hear a difference between this one unison and the adjacent unisons. It is my personal experience, that tuning technique is far more important than being able to make the most refined temperament. It is for that reason only that in one of the very best Piano Academies (Hamamatsu) in the world, the young students learn to master tuning technique first by doing pitch raise and pitch lowering ALL DAY long for three Months (wow), and with the aid of a tuning machine. The result of EVERY tuning is scribbled on a chalk board in the central hall, for everybody to see, openly or sneakily. Showing their bad marks drives the students to the edge of their abilities, and this usually results in already having quite a decent tuning technique after those three Months. The next course is learning about temperament, but this time without machines, and after one year, they are often just as good (or much better even) than a tuner from our hemisphere who has already worked quite a number of years. That's one of the main reasons, why I, after having fought with piano's for the better part of my professional life, put the emphasis on technique, and please with the aid of one of the best ETD's. I can concentrate fully on technique, and on making 'tone'. BTW.... If someone here prefers to not use an ETD, than I have no objections to that at all. How could I? and why should I? It is everybody's personal choice, and I truly understand the love and dedication of making a very beautiful aural tuning. I have had more than my share, that's why I choose for what I chose. André Oorebeek On 26-okt-04, at 18:26, jason kanter wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">One of the very first basics we learn is that we must set the pin with a firm blow to equalize the string tension across the friction points. How does this relate to the current discussion of using rather soft blows to tune unisons? I *imagine* that you tune with soft blows, then settle the pin with a hard blow, then listen again with soft blow to ensure the tuning has not moved? But the hard blow has likely changed the tuning, so ... do you use soft blows while raising the pitch, then lowering it to a smidgeon sharp, then apply a firm blow to settle the string into exactly the right spot? If we avoid hard blows entirely, surely the piano will be immediately put out of tune by the pianist?   Puzzled in Seattle | |   |= | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |   | | |   | |  Jason Kanter . pi= ano tuning regulation repair jkanter@rollingball.com . cell 425= 830 1561 serving the= eastside and the san juans -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org= [<a= href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org<= /a>]On Behalf Of Quentin Codevelle Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004= 9:32 PM To: pianotech Subject: How we hear to= Jeneetah Hi,   Maybe you should keep on making= soft blows, but try to hit the key quickly, without listening to the note= during 15 sec like you said. That way you'll be able to hear the= "attack" of the note, the first stage of the sound that is= produced. Having a clear and pure sounding= attack is very important for me, and I've never succeeded in having a clear= attack when tuning with listening to the note more than 2 or 3= seconds.   For me, when I tune, when my attack= is clear, the rest is also, and my unisson has enough "length"= most of times. I need much concentration right now= to make clean unissons on every note with this technique, that means it= takes some time to have a good eveness. But since the beginning, you should= hear a difference, YOUR sound will be turning from black to white.=   Andre?   Quentin. </blockquote>friendly greetings from André Oorebeek "where Music is, no harm can be" </blockquote></x-html> </blockquote></body> </html>