<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Hello, </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>So many good questions and comments on this threads I don't see what I = can add.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I have made some research to understand why some felt was sold to us to be = "carbonized" while other does not advertise on that.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>In fact in the old times, since 1860 or so, there was only machines to = clean the wool from the thistle and vegetal residues (it was even hand cleaned, by = prisoners, was said, before 1860 and the apparition of "the leviathan" a = machine developed by Mr. De Laoureux de Serviers, who lived in SERVIERS, in = Belgium, and this town was the "only"  European place for wool washing and preparation before making cloth or felt with it (till other places = appear near Hamburg in the 1910 ) The wool yet came from south America, England = and other countries as well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Then around 1880 a chemical process including the use of acid (liquid or = vapor) was used to 'carbonize' the vegetal in the wool. The process gives a brown = color to the wool and then it have to be bleached (with bleach) to get white = again (while may be it can be leaved without bleaching, as find in some traditional = felt cloths.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>With a goggle research I have find the declarative papers from the French = "water agency", that our actual wool washers (in washing columns) are using, as = the process is using a lot of water, that is contamined then with dye and = other products and may be recycled or treated.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I asked at the Wurzen factory and had a talk with someone who = was kind enough to tell me that those days all the wool is carbonized to get rid = of vegetal, that is the usual process.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Then some wools are a little yellow, and other are bleached to death (like = the Laoureux hammer felt which is very white). I don't know but I suspect = the lanolin staying within the fiber differ depending of the strength of = these processes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>My question was because I noticed that the white Laoureux felt is making a = scratch noise under the needle even if the elasticity is poor, so I wandered if = the bleaching process had something to do with that.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I've read also a comment from Topper Piano that German hammers are sometime impregnated with some lacquer, this has not been my experience, but = maybe the heat used (and more if some vapor have been used, which turn the hammer = in stone) while pressing leave us with a felt that give that impression (particularly with VFG felt it can be noticed). </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><SPAN = class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I was also said that any color or = additive added to the felt was counterproductive in terms of resiliency/elasticity.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><SPAN = class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Another question : the Piano felts are not treated against = moths (generally) and can be attacked , particularly the softer ones, so we = should have some Cedar or anti moth paper in the boxes where we keep our parts.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>If you have find brownish pieces in the old felts that certainly mean they = where not carbonized, or not bleached.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I'll ask that question also to the Wurzen people, about the action of lanolin = in keeping the fiber springiness, but I guess too much lanolin goes against = the felting density (fulling).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I am happy to see that the effort from that felt maker to give us a very good = product are appreciated, and I have them know about it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>We need enthusiasts here, before its too late !</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Friendly wishes to all</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Isaac OLEG</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=940111121-18052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la part de</B> antares<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> mardi 18 mai 2004 = 22:39<BR><B>À :</B> Phillip Ford; Pianotech<BR><B>Objet :</B> Alfred Dolge would smile = upon us<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Hello Phillip,<BR><BR>I was in the Wurzen factory = and I have seen (roughly speaking) how the felt is made.<BR>It starts with a = heap of selected wools mixed together.<BR>This wool goes into a 'carding = machine' where layers of hair are produced.<BR>These layers of hair are actually the = layers in the felted hammers we later buy.<BR>The layers of hair are put on top of = each other until they form a certain thickness and pieces of these layered = wools are put into a fulling machine where they undergo the process of = fulling.<BR>This process of fulling is where the fibers of the wool hairs are being "interlocked". They thus form the real first mass of felt as this = process is combined with heat and water and shaking.<BR>The secret of the Wurzen = factory is that they control this fulling process to the max and that is why we now = have such a high quality felt (again).<BR>If you look at the latest Wurzen = AAA quality felt you will notice a higher density of the fibers. Yes, you = can actually see it.<BR>But most of all, you can actually hear it.<BR>The = tone is one if totally <I>natural</I> elasticity without any use of chemicals = (as Dale Erwin too described the other day).<BR>The art of getting out the = desired colors is the art of voicing. The Wurzen felt offers, so far, the most = interesting palette of colors and, as we all know, this felt is for sale in America = at Ronsen hammers (Ray Negron).<BR>We are now faced with two problems : = <BR>we want the hammer maker to make a perfect hammer with this new felt (not an = easy task).<BR>We need to learn again to work with this wonderful felt. As = Dale said it : we should actually only dope these hammers to accentuate some percussiveness, not to "totally fill the tub and throw the babies = in".<BR>This is an interesting period where we are again offered felt made with great = craftsmanship and artistry.<BR>Alfred Dolge would smile upon us but he = is probably busy with other things<BR><BR>André Oorebeek<BR><BR><BR>On = 18-mei-04, at 22:07, Phillip Ford wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>To all Hammer Heads<BR>In the previous thread I was trying = to convey the way I see that a <BR>hammer<BR>is made & if you = followed that then you see that I have a definition of<BR>tensioned felt in mind. = However what I failed to articulate clearly is <BR>that Tension<BR>& = compression go hand in hand in the hammer pressing process.<BR>As I stated, = & piano hammer makers can tell you, that too much tension <BR>can<BR>be = achieved during pressing in the outer layers of felt and it can & will rip<BR>open in the crown. This is the elastic limit of the felt. As = the stretching<BR>of the felt on the outer perimeter happens the inner = parts of the felt are<BR>compressing. It has too because of the stretching of = the outer felt, the<BR>triangular shape the felt strip is cut & the = hammer press pressure itself.<BR>...<BR>Regards<BR>Dale = Erwin<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And in a previous post I was trying to convey the idea that the <BR>makeup = of the felt itself is important, and that perhaps the makeup of the <BR>felt = that is available now is different from what it was in the good <BR>American = hammers of the past. The old hammers look and feel different than <BR>new = hammers. It's hard to know how much of this is different felt and how <BR>much = is just age. Also, as TP pointed out, if you file these hammers <BR>you'll = often find embedded dirt and junk in the felt. Stick a needle in <BR>one, and = you'll sense that it feels different to the needle than a new <BR>hammer = would. You can push the needle in without much effort, and I have <BR>the sense = that the felt isn't really very dense. The felt seems to feel a <BR>little = 'grittier' for lack of a better term. And they respond dramatically <BR>to even a = single needle stitch. Also, you'll hear people referring to <BR>layers in = hammer felt when talking about new hammers. My experience is <BR>that new hammers = don't really have them. I haven't tried the new Wurzen <BR>felt hammers yet, = but I have tried the slightly older Wurzen felt <BR>hammers(such is used on = Hamburg Steinway I believe), and while the <BR>impression of layering is more noticeable with these hammers, it's nothing <BR>like it was in the old = hammers. There really were layers, or at least they <BR>behaved as if = there were layers. You could peel one of those hammers like <BR>a grape, if = you were so inclined. This is all to say that I'm not sure any <BR>felt = available now is like the felt they were using a few decades ago, for <BR>better or = worse, and what I'm hearing here is that many people think it's <BR>for the worse.<BR>The discussion seems to concentrate on how hammers are made: = hot or <BR>cold pressed, lots of pressure or not, glue at the tip of the = molding or <BR>not, etc. There doesn't seem to be much discussion of the makeup = of the <BR>felt itself, other than is it Wurzen or not. I get the impression = that <BR>people think that sheep are sheep and felt is felt (the way that = most <BR>people think apples are apples - if you asked most people how many = <BR>varieties of apples exist, they would say two; red delicious and = granny <BR>smith. They would be astonished to learn that there are hundreds = of <BR>varieties of apples - we don't see any of them because of the = nature of <BR>business in this country, not because of the nature of apples). = There are <BR>many breeds of sheep. They produce wool of different colors, fiber = length, <BR>fiber strength, and felting ability. Also, sheep are not the only = animals <BR>that produce feltable fibers. Camels, goats, and llamas, among = others also <BR>produce feltable fibers with properties different from those of = sheep wool <BR>fibers. There's nothing to prevent these various fibers from being = blended <BR>with one another (I believe I heard Ari Isaac once mention that he = wanted <BR>to try making some hammers with felt that had some mohair in the = blend). I <BR>believe that the length and quality of the fibers depends on where = on the <BR>animal the wool comes from. I think the best wool is from the = chest area <BR>(but don't quote me on that). I can also imagine that the quality = of the <BR>wool from a given breed of sheep could be dependent on its sex, = its diet, <BR>and its environment. The wool from a male merino sheep eating = grass in the <BR>north of Scotland is probably going to be different from that of a = female <BR>merino sheep eating soybeans in California. So, there are many = choices <BR>available when making a selection of fibers to be felted.<BR>After = you choose your fibers you have to card them, clean them, and <BR>perhaps = bleach them. I don't know much about these processes, but I would <BR>imagine = that agressive or excessive carding could break down long fibers, <BR>that excessive washing or washing with agressive soaps could strip = <BR>desirable substances off the fibers, and that bleaching could affect the = <BR>properties of the fibers (although all of these processes, agressively = done,<BR>would probably make the felt look nice and clean). So, more choices to = make<BR>about how to treat your raw materials.<BR>Now you have your processed fibers = and need to felt them. I'm not <BR>clear on how they do this, but = pressure, rolling, and perhaps heat are <BR>involved. Once again, choices about = how much pressure, how much rolling<BR>and turning, and whether to use heat and = how much.<BR>So, there are many choices to make in each step of the = process. Each <BR>of these choices will affect the properties of the final = <BR>product. Unfortunately for us, I think that the felt properties that would = <BR>make the best piano hammers are not the felt properties that most = <BR>industrial customers are looking for. Wool that will make a good machine <BR>tool = vibration isolation pad isn't necessarily the same wool that will make = <BR>a good piano hammer. And piano hammers make up a tiny percentage of the = <BR>felt market. When I was at the Steinway factory I saw stacks of felt for <BR>hammers. It looked like a lot of felt to me, but was apparently <BR>insignificant to the supplier. I was told that basically Steinway = has <BR>to choose one of the suppliers standard felts because the amount = of felt <BR>they buy is a miniscule percentage of that makers output, and that = the <BR>maker wouldn't be bothered to make felt to their specifications = for what he <BR>considers such a tiny quantity. So, if we're getting hammers = with dense <BR>felt without much tension and compression in them, then that may = be because <BR>the hammer maker is working with the only materials = available to him.<BR>If a hammer having lots of tension and compression built into = it by <BR>the pressing is what gives a superior performing hammer, then you = have to <BR>have felt that is capable of standing up to that process. The = outer fibers <BR>have to be able to stand the tension. So, your felt has to be made = up of <BR>fibers of the requisite length and strength to achieve this = tensile <BR>strength. How the density of the felt would affect the pressing = process is <BR>unclear to me. But it seems possible to me that very dense felt = might have <BR>a different neutral bending axis, so to speak, as it's being bent = over the <BR>tip of the molding, which results in less tension on the outer = fibers when <BR>the hammer is pressed. This would be a desirable thing if you're = using <BR>felt without much tensile strength - perhaps another reason for = using high <BR>density felt. But if this supposition is correct, then to achieve = high <BR>tension in the outer fibers when pressing the hammer, you might = have to use <BR>lower density felt.<BR>To make an old style hammer I think = maybe you want wool with long <BR>fibers that hasn't been manipulated too much = and not pressed too hard. To <BR>get the best felt for this purpose, let's = imagine that you need chest wool <BR>of a Lincoln sheep raised in a cold = climate, not carded or washed too much, <BR>not bleached, blended with some mohair, = and felted to a low density. Can <BR>you imagine anyone in the world being = willing or able to supply such a <BR>thing in 2004? Forget it. In 1904, = probably. But we've made 100 years of <BR>'progress' since then.<BR><BR>Phil <BR><BR><BR><BR>Phillip Ford<BR>Piano Service and Restoration<BR>San Francisco, = CA<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>fri= endly greetings <BR>from<BR>André Oorebeek<BR><BR>Amsterdam -<BR>The Netherlands<BR><BR>0031-20-6237357<BR>0645-492389<BR>0031-75-6226878<BR>w= ww.concertpianoservice.nl<BR>www.grandpiano.nl<BR><BR>"where music is, no harm can be"<BR></BODY></HTML>