<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Scaling Problem reduex</TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <STYLE type=text/css>BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } DL { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } UL { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } OL { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } LI { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } </STYLE> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good point, Joe.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I guess I'll put that hypothesis to bed = with some of my other imponderables.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carl</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=joegarrett@earthlink.net href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net">Joseph Garrett</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 21, 2001 = 10:48 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling Problem = reduex</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Carl,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>My hypothesis would be that when you twist the = string in the opposite direction of the winding, you essentially make the winding = loose around the core wire. Also when this happens, I suspect that the = loosening does not occur evenly throughout the speaking length of the string. = This loosening allows the core wire to oscillate, (vibrate), at different = rates throughout the length of the string, therefore giving you weird = harmonic readings from the SAT</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Just my hypothesis. Hope the real brain types will = chime in on this one. [grin]</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Joe Garrett</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=cmpiano@home.com href="mailto:cmpiano@home.com">Carl = Meyer</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 21, 2001 = 6:11 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling Problem reduex</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for your response.  = Only one so far.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm sorry your Brombach "loner" is = such an unfriendly antisocial piano.  I'm sure you meant "loaner"  = grin.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't doubt you are correct about = twisting causing the problem.  I just would like to understand what is happening. If twisting strings in the wrong direction causes the = higher partials to go flat, couldn't we take a string that is excessively = sharp and dial in a twist to correct it.  Of course that is silly, but it = shows my dilemma in trying to explain what is going on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm still at a loss to explain why = a string would go radically flat at the higher partials on only one note and = less so on other notes.  I used an Accutuner which may not = have given the info that rct would have regarding amplitude etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think that I used two turn twists = for the single wound strings.  In retrospect I realized that since this = was a very short string piano that may have been excessive.  It = hadn't occurred to me at the time that twists should be related to the = length of the string. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I recently sold a 7 foot grand that = had bass strings by a particular maker, and some of the double wound strings = were somewhat dead.  Having nothing to lose, I put three full turns = on the bad ones and they came alive.  These were new strings.  I = probably won't use that maker again.  I notice that there is wide = opinions about twisting bass strings.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One more thought!  If wire = stiffness causes higher partials to be sharp, did my twisting in the wrong = direction make the wire more limber?  And did it stay more limber after = twisting in the correct direction?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So many questions!  So few answers!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carl Meyer</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=joegarrett@earthlink.net href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net">Joseph Garrett</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 20, 2001 = 10:43 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling = Problem reduex</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Carl,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>A few years ago, my son worked with me in my = shop, he couldn't get the principle of twisting in the direction of the = winding. Needless to say, he twisted the bass strings of my "loner" grand, = (a 5'1" Brombach), in the wrong direction. About 90% of those strings, = even after I retwisted them the correct direction, were bad. Really a nasty = sound. I have since replaced them, but what you experienced, I'm convinced, = was due to twisting in the reverse direction.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Regards, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Joe Garrett</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=cmpiano@home.com = href="mailto:cmpiano@home.com">Carl Meyer</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 20, = 2001 7:40 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling = Problem reduex</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ain't gonna lurk no mo, no = mo!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm gonna tell a story.  = It's a bit sad and  embarrassing for me but it ends = okay.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A young man and his sister = found an art deco piano on the internet a year or so ago for 10000 = dollars.  It had a severely cracked plate in the middle section.  A half = moon crack thru the tuning pin area and the two struts at the ends = cracked about half way thru.  This piano was a Strohmenger made in = London about 1930.  It was 4'1".  Piano was a half = round</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>shape (As Victor Borge would = say "That big fat opera singer didn't lean on the side of the piano.") It was = 2-tone, dark mahogany and light maple, and the rear of the lid opened = like a duck's rear end.  The legs swooped down to the floor to = meet at the lyre.  The mover said "I'll never forget where you = live-It's where I saw this butt ugly piano".  Actually, it grew on = me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The piano was in Austin,Tex and = I was shown a Xerox of the crack.  I told them that if anyone in the = area could fix it I could and I doubted anyone else would even try.  I = won't give you a price tho till I see it.  Well, they went ahead = and bought it for 8000 and I did take on the job.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After repairing the plate (no I = didn't weld it, I re-enforced it patched it and used 1/4 thick, 2 inch wide = steel bar to support the sagging section and used lots of screws and = steel filled epoxy.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now the embarrassing = part.  I rescaled the piano and was stringing fat, dumb and happy from the top = down in the bass and was 2/3 finished when I realized I was twisting the = strings in the wrong direction.  Whoops! So I corrected them and continued.  You'll see why I have to admit this = later.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The reason this applies to = scaling is that this piano had 35 notes below the bass break.  There were = no agraffes at all.  Notes 36 and 37 were bichord wound = strings and the next four notes were bichord plain wire.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had a real problem when I = chipped it.  Lots of chipping but </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>the center section finally = settled down.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now when I tried to actually = tune it, note 35 sounded terrible. It just couldn't be tuned.  I tried = tuning the fundamental of both strings to the accutuner and the two strings = didn't even sound the same.  Then I found that the left strings partials 2-5 were  21, 3, 4, and18 cents flat.  = The right were 21, 18, 21 and 38 cents flat.  I sure didn't know what = to do.  I called everybody I could think of.  Nobody = could give me a good explanation.  So I ordered a pair of the smallest = universal strings I could get, put them on and lo and behold, It = sounded good.  So I ordered four more strings and used them on = notes 36 and 37 ( the first notes above the bass break)  They weren't = nearly as bad as note 35 but </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I replaced the anyway.  = </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now after all this work, I = thought that piano sounder better that a lot of much larger poorly scaled = grands. Certainly the best sounding 4'1" I've seen.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The customer is delighted and = so am I.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here are some = questions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Did my twisting the strings in = the wrong direction damage them and what exactly did it do to = them? And why just the top three?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If they were just bad strings, = what was wrong with them?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm suspicious that the string = winder didn't use enough tension, but would that cause the partials to = go flat?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I checked the strings diameter = and length etc and couldn't find anything wrong, no loose windings, = nothing.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What happened?  = Anybody?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carl Meyer</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>---- Original Message ----- </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sec@overspianos.com.au href="mailto:sec@overspianos.com.au">Overs Pianos</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 20, = 2001 6:11 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scaling = Problem reduex</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Kevin, Joe, Ron and other lurkers,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Saw your post earlier today Kevin when you wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial = size=-1> I've noticed something on some newer pianos lately . . . I've = been encountering more and more pianos of late that seem to have = a real scaling problem in the low tenor section. . . but where I = really see it is in the new Yamaha model GA1, and . . GH1. What is = happening is that the designers of these pianos have put too many notes = in the tenor that belong in the bass. As you play chromatically = down the scale, these notes start sounding like "pong-pong-pong" and = then you hit the bass, and they sound normal = again.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Your absolutely correct. Why oh why are so many = manufacturers so 'thick' that they can't see that they're crippling their = smaller pianos by insisting on breaking at B27. Little pianos like the = GA1 should break at E32/F33 at the lowest, but they just don't get = it.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>    I know that this is caused by = continuing to drop the tension on the strings in order to get the = fundamental down to the required frequency, but you reach a certain = point, and you get a tone that seems hollow and is very difficult to = fit in with the rest of the tuning.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>As soon as the long bridge turns and heads for the bass = side of the case the scale has had it. If the break was higher up the = tension wouldn't fall away so dramatically.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>    I've had some partial success = with carefully doping the hammers, and voicing the bass down, = plus leveling strings, straightening termination points etc., but = not to any totally satisfactory result.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>No it's not possible to get it satisfactory. But why = should technicians in the field have to go to such measures just to = get the things to sound somewhat like a piano. And it's only half a = fix anyhow, because the problem is with the scale.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Ron N's suggestion was sound, and I have no doubt that = installing bichord covers for a few notes will make the piano 'less bad' = as he says. But I'm more in favour of installing a tenor bridge and completely rescaling the thing. But you wouldn't bother with a = little entry level piano like the GA1.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Kevin continued later in the day;</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial = size=-1>Thanks to all who have responded. . . . . . . . I have nothing but the = greatest respect for Yamaha, and their products, (I own two) but I = can't understand why that company, which is the most advanced in = the world, could produce a product with such obvious poor planning.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>While Yamaha certainly know how to manufacture pianos to = a blueprint, they get the blueprint wrong. They don't seem to = have a clue about scale design with their smaller grands (ie, = anything under and before the C7F), and there's not a Japanese manufacturer = with a decent upright scale. Furthermore, both the Yamaha CF and = Kawai's EX are basically scaling clones of the Steinway D (all three have = got a speaking length at F21 of 183 cm - what a magic number this = must be!). Why? Why do this? What's so wrong with doing a bit of original = thinking. We've all basically wasted a whole century by trying = to follow in the foot steps of one company. Why do this? We homo = sapiens are supposed to be intelligent, but sometimes we seem to be no = more creative than sheep.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial = size=-1>The Japanese are such industrious and intelligent people, that you would = think that surely they would stop and go back to the drawing-board = before shipping one.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>There are intelligent folks and idiots amongst all = nationalities. We just need to believe in ourselves now and then. We can move = forward if we let ourselves do it. It's no use going back to the = 'drawing board' only to produce the same old trash. We need to rethink = the parameters, and it needs to happen in our generation. = Actually, I believe this list just might make it possible. Isn't that an = exciting prospect.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>    If I tuned nothing but Yamaha = grands, I could spend out my days in relative = happiness.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I couldn't. They're fine while ever the wether stays = stable. But as soon as the wether changes the tuning stability is 'out the = window', and its scale and down bearing and sound board = related.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial = size=-1>But I just don't get it with these really small ones that are starting = to come out on the market.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Many designers seem to be such 'traditionaloids', they = can't bring themselves to move the break away from A#26/B27. That's = where it's always been historically - so we can't mess with = tradition can we? It's a similar situation with 7' grands which break at = E20/F21. Just because the concert piano breaks at F21, why should the = 7' scale be ruined by breaking it at F21. A 145 cm F21 speaking length = on the 7' is going to be somewhat short on break % compared to the = 183 cm F21 on the concert piano (and there's a 'paddock full' of these = ordinary 7' pianos out there, which could be so much better at no extra = cost). Let's damn tradition, if there's a better way of designing = than the traditional way.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type="cite"><FONT face=Arial size=-1>    But I'm not working to please = myself. I just don't want a customer to buy one, and then think that = it's a tuning issue, like I should be able to just fix it in three = to five minutes. I'm a "technician"  not a  "magician".</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Exactly, but you'd need to be a magician to get many of = those stupid little designs to hold tune for longer than takes for = you to get your kit back in the car - if indeed you were able to get = it into tune at all. I had an experience some years ago when I got a = call-back to a newish Japanese 131 cm top of the range vertical I'd = tuned the week before. "It's gone out of tune", she bleated over the = phone. When I checked the piano, it was the fallen-over tension area just = before the cross which had gone quite sharp (it had rained during the = week since the tuning hadn't it!). When I tried to explain that the = problem was with the scale design of the piano, the client didn't = believe me. She accused me of incompetence and of trying to pass the blame = onto the piano - which couldn't be the problem, after all, it was a = new piano! I was less than impressed with the prospect of wearing = the blame for something which I knew to be due to poor scale = design.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>There, I feel a whole lot better now. I've been quietly = bubbling over for a while on this issue. Thanks Kevin.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>We must widen our design perspective. It is now possible = to design and build pianos which are better than anything which = has gone before. Let's do it! Even the cheaper pianos could still have = better design.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Over and out.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Ron O</DIV> <DIV>-- = <BR>______________________________<BR><BR>Website:  = http://www.overspianos.com.au<BR>Email:     &nbs= p;  = mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au<BR>______________________________</DIV></BL= OCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM= L>