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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>I'm with you...a 100 cent change hardly=
moves the pin at all...<BR><BR>David=
Ilvedson<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Original message<BR>From: Farrell=
<MFARREL2@TAMPABAY.RR.COM><BR>To: Pianotech=
<PIANOTECH@PTG.ORG><BR>Received: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:18:17=
-0400<BR>Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill<BR><BR>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial>A 30 degree turn of a tuning pin=
every year on a stable piano? No way!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Calculate the pitch increase with a 30=
degree rotation on a 2/0 pin - even the 7.5 degree=
rotation - I suspect you will very quickly realize your=
numbers are grossly excessive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Unless, of course, I am wrong. But I don't=
think so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=
</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tune4u@earthlink.net=
href="mailto:tune4u@earthlink.net">alan and carolyn barnard</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=
title=pianotech@ptg.org=
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 11,=
2005 8:50 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Grist for the=
Mill</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>We recently had a long dialog on here about the actual=
changes in a piano that has gone flat. There was much poo-pooing=
(can we say that on TV?) from some folks of the notion=
that tuning pins turned counter-clockwise when pianos go=
flat. Their arguments were logical and some folks even=
produced mathematics to demonstrated that pin reversal is=
unlikely.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>BUT ...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I was thinking about this on my way home from PTG chapter=
meeting (2.5 hr drive) and came up with a little point of logic=
which suggests that the pins MUST move. See what you think=
...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Virtually all pianos go flat over longish time periods and=
certainly are found flat more often than sharp if you go through=
a whole cycle of season changes, i.e., an annual tuning. When=
we bring a flat string up to pitch, it tends to increase=
the width of the coil slightly every time we turn the pin. If=
the pin is turned one full revolution--360=
degrees--over years of tuning, this would add the thickness=
dimension of the wire to the overall coil width and one=
full wire wrap to the number of coils. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You with me?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So let's take a hypothetical piano string--say a very stable=
1905 Howard upright A4 middle string--that has averaged (let's=
be conservative...) falling flat enough that a 7.5=
degree turn of the pin was required each year to bring it=
up to pitch. Now 7.5 degrees is a fairly small=
annual adjustment, just a little tweak, actually. Ce n'est=
pas? It's only 1/6 if a quarter turn.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So, between 1905 and 2005, we have turned that string's=
pin 100 X 7.5 = 750 degrees, more than two full=
turns.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How many old pianos do we run into that have five or more=
coils on the pin? I never noticed any. In fact,=
most seem to have the original 3 coils standing about as far=
from the plate as the day it was strung--unless someone has=
hammered them in, in which case it's still only about 3=
coils!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Pause ... thinkin on that?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now strings must become ever so slightly thinner as they=
stretch, especially in the earlier years. So, for the string to=
produce the same pitch, the string tension required would be=
ever so slightly less over time. This would have a very slight=
mitigating effect on the thought puzzle proposed above. But=
nowhere near enough to explain 100 years of flatness, methinks.=
And ven if the string is stretching, you would still be adding=
linear length to the coil every time.
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I believe, in fact, that about a 30 annual correction, or=
more, would be very common. Think about your own=
real-world, real-piano experience. Visualize pulling=
your tuning hammer through a 30 degree arc, i.e., 1/3=
of a quarter turn. That's still a pretty darned small=
once-a-year adjustment. So, I think my estimates here have=
been very, very conservative.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, at 30 degrees the piano would have to have=
a total of 8+ full coils on every pin if the pin never turned=
backward.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Your turn or, as we used to say in Viet Nam .... I n c o m i=
n g ! ! ! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hunkered in the Bunker in Salem, MO</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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