<html> At 08:01 PM 12/13/2004 -0600, you wrote: Doug,     Many factors involved, there. PTG offers a technical bulletin explaining pitch raises. You can get it from the web site. A general observation is that if the whole piano has drifted, it's the piano. If the unisons have gone sour, it was probably your technique. If you do several pitch raise passes, and settle the strings well, the piano should be okay for at least half an hour. Really, after that, it's out of your hands. But... perhaps you didn't actually raise the pitch. If you just "tune" a piano that is extremely flat, it will drop. Guaranteed. And.... the plain wires will act differently than the wrapped wires.    When you are just starting out, you may have to consider the occasional revisit as part of the learning curve budget.    Don't ever fight with a customer. You might win. Regards, Guy Nichols, RPT <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Hi Doug, Yes, do go back and touch up the tuning.  Always explain before a pitch raise that it is just the first of several tunings to raise the pitch and stabilize the tuning.  Myself, I tell them on anything over 25% low is a pitch raise now.  Another tuning in 2 weeks and then in 3 months.  I do not do a pitch raise unless they thoroughly understand this.  I write my own brochures and it explains all about the peculiarities of a pitch raised piano and the expectations of such.  You will learn how to be firm and exude confidence in your words with time and will come to not be afraid to speak your truth of pianos and why they go out of tune. Jim James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups (314) 608-4137 <a href="http://www.JamesGrebe.com">WWW.JamesGrebe.com</a> 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE! <a href="mailto:pianoman@accessus.net">pianoman@accessus.net</a> <dl> <dd>----- Original Message ----- <dd>From: <a href="mailto:pianotuner@frontiernet.net">Doug Renz Piano Tuning</a> <dd>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> <dd>Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 7:51 PM <dd>Subject: Help with "bad" tuning...need help <dd>As a new piano tuner, I am learning a lot as I go and tune different <dd>piano’s and typically I am tuning the older piano’s and some new/better <dd>ones.  This past Sat. I tuned a piano for a home that had a console <dd>that had never been tuned ‘in a long time’. I warned them that I might <dd>break strings and that it will go out of tune quickly because of the condition <dd>of the strings and the piano itself. Well I was called back by <dd>the customer saying ‘the piano is still out of tune and you must not <dd>have checked it before you left’.  Before I left I told him, ‘your piano <dd>is most likely going to go flat somewhat because it has not been tuned <dd>at all in such a long time (20+ yrs) and that it should tuned every 6 months. The <dd>piano was old and recently had some action work, but the strings looked <dd>old and dirty.  I was careful not to break any strings and when I left it sounded <dd>good and the funny thing was the customer said it sounded good after I finished. <dd>It was not that out of tune, A440 sounded like it was between g-sharp and a, but <dd>not an entire half/step off. <dd>  <dd>So, what do I do now? Has anyone been in my shoes before? Go back and <dd>do a ‘free’ fix it up tuning, or tell him, he has to pay for a 2nd tuning. Is this <dd>going to risk my reputation? He had the action done by another local PTG member <dd>and I am afraid that if I don’t go back and ‘fix’ this, I am going to get that <dd>reputation and the other PTG member might tell others about the ‘part time’ tooner, <dd>which I do not want to be and this is why I joined the PTG, to get better. Any <dd>thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. <dd>  <dd>I thought the tuning was good, inspite of the condition of the piano and the strings. <dd>It sounded alot better, but I knew it was going to need another tuning soon. <dd>  <dd>Any advice, thoughts? <dd>  <dd>Thanks. <dd>Doug Renz <dd>Associate PTG member, Rochester, NY </dl></blockquote></html>