<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" = http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>Don, Del,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I shouldn't buy into this as in two days time I of to do bush work = again, but, why is this discussion still continuing without the mention of "A = violin must be bowed continually to put out a sustained sound whilst a piano = the note will sustain its self."  I understand that its the string of the = piano that is vibrating and that the soundboard in the piano must be of free = construction to permit the strings vibrations to move it, whilst in a violin, the = soundboard is solid to permit the bow of the string to control the sound. The = timbers used for this purpose are, and must be different because the boards are both = required to operate in different ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No comparison in my book. But if you were talking about acoustic = guitars and pianos, that is a different story.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tony</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:pianobuilders@olynet.com" title=pianobuilders@olynet.com>Delwin D Fandrich</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 11, 2001 = 12:20 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: soundboards = improving with age? or what else?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #800080 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com" = title=pianotuna@yahoo.com>Don</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> June 08, 2001 1:34 = AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: soundboards = improving with age? or what else?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD vAlign=top> <DIV align=left>Hi Del,<BR> <BR>You are right that = pianos are not violins. However,<BR>are you suggesting that the top and = bottom "plates"<BR>(i.e. sound board) don't vibrate on a violin = acting as<BR>a transducer--just like a piano sound board is = a<BR>transducer? </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Yes, but = that's about where the similarities end. As you say, the four strings of the = violin have a total tension of somewhere around 80 pounds (about 36 = kgf.), on the piano its typically between 35,000 and 50,000 (about = 15,900 to 22,700 kgf.). The downforce from the string plane of the = piano against the soundboard is between 250 lbs 750 lbs. (115 and = 340 kgf.) I don't know--have never had the need to figure it out--the = down force against the bridge of a violin but it's going to be some very = small fraction of that. That alone separates the two. </FONT><BR> <BR></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left>I agree there are many differences--but it = is not Oil<BR>and water as you seem to indicate.</DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Well, as you = say...they are both wood and they both vibrate. The list of their structural = and operational differences is some longer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT = color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT = color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT = color=#800080 size=2></FONT><BR> <BR>There has been some research = done on how violin plates<BR>vibrate in free air. So far as I know there = have been<BR>none done on pianos. Surely both do vibrate, and = both<BR>are wood. It would seem prudent to at least look at = the<BR>research for similarities.</DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Oh, I do = whenever I come across them. But I don't really seek them out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Similar = studies have been done with the piano soundboard--many of them--but they don't = tell us much about how the real-world piano works. That is not the = normal environment of the piano soundboard. The piano soundboard = (typically) has its entire parameter glued to a relatively solid and = massive rim in what amounts to a clamped-edge configuration. (The mounting = of the violin top is closer to a hinged-end configuration) = </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Piano = soundboards have also been studied glued to the rim but not loaded with all = those awkward strings--the plate and strings get in the way of the = test equipment, you know. Some time back I read through the report = of a researcher who did some extensive modal analysis on a grand = piano soundboard. Tens of thousands of dollars were spent on this = analysis, but in the end the information, while of much academic = interest, was of no practical value to the manufacturer who had = paid the bill. The entire analysis was done using an unloaded = soundboard. Things just change too much once the strings go on. = </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>And it's not = just the loading of the soundboard by the string downforce. We also = have to consider the interaction between the soundboard/bridge and the = string plane. There are just a whole lot of things going on there and = all of them are going on simultaneously. </FONT><FONT color=#800080 = size=2>The vibrating characteristics of the soundboard panel = and assembly change so much between its freely suspended = condition and its more normal clamped and loaded condition as to make = all of these studies academically interesting but practically = useless. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>There are = also some limited studies that have been done using loaded soundboards, all of = them using vertical pianos--it's easier to get at the soundboard in = a vertical. We're finally getting on the right = track.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>I am sure = that the studies done on violin tops are certainly interesting and they surely = tell the researcher much about how the violin top vibrates in free air. = But I must wonder just how much that reveal about how that same top = performs when it is fully assembled, the instrument is strung and = played. In the case of the piano soundboard it's like the = difference between oil and water.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><BR>I do agree whole heartedly that the = sound production<BR>is *different*. A high tension piano vs a low tension<BR>fiddle. (about 80 lbs total tension on a fiddle btw). <BR> <BR><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Yup. = they are different.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2>Del</FONT></DIV></TD> <TD vAlign=top width=133> <CENTER><A = href="http://www.mailround.com/servlets/RedirectServlet?request=stamp= Redir&BrandId=991988805532&url=http://multi1.rmuk.co.uk/RealM= edia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.mailround.com/Send/27980/Top/Mailround.com/serv= ista/servista_002.gif/64346131366430373362316239666130" target=_blank></A></CENTER> <P><FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" = size=1>Stamp powered by <A = href="http://www.mailround.com/?s=mrb&c=cmrb&x=xmadeby&am= p;p=mrb-cmrb-xmadeby&BrandId=991988805532" target=_blank>www.mailround.com </A><BR><BR><A = href="http://www.mailround.com/servlets/RedirectServlet?s=mry&c== cmry&x=xjoin&p=mry-cmry-xjoin&request=stampRedir&Br= andId=991988805532&url=http://www.yoptin.net/MLR/UK.MLR.001.211M.= /" target=_blank>Click here</A> to join YOPTIN and WIN COOL = PRIZES = </FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></H= TML>