<HTML>In a message dated 1/19/02 9:53:49 PM Central Standard Time, oleg-i@wanadoo.fr (Isaac OLEG SIMANOT) writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Following the instructions I tried to realize the EBVT today, find a temperament a little crude and glossy (these are positives thoughts). Not sure I have obtained the correct result, but it gives some contrast in the keys and give the piano (Kaway RX2 , new) the impression to have something interesting in it . I  did not find really shocking tonalities, but I am not sure I understand the explanations about the 2d inversion of the major triad in the first white keys . May I understand that the minor third will beat as the major sixth in these keys (C G D A E B F).? If yes I don't see how to hear fast beating minor thirds going up in the scale. </BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you again, Oleg for telling me and everyone of your experience.  I am not sure I understood all of what you were saying about unisons while using my Tempered Octaves method. Yes, I use the strip mute and the Sostenuto or Damper pedal to compare the Double Octave and 12th.  I leave the strip mute in the center section and progress all the way to the top before tuning the unisons and then tune unisons from the top downwards. I still leave the middle section muted to tune the Bass and its unisons next and tune the middle unisons last.  Although this is quite the opposite of the way most people tune, I have good reason for doing it this way.  For one, the *Coupled Motion of Strings Effect* (CMSE), causes the pitch to drop slightly when a full unison is played.  Therefore, I never tune a single string against a full unison.  If there is a drop in pitch after the unison is tuned, then I will not have tuned a single string very precisely only to have it fall slightly flat of where I want it to be when finished.  I set the relationship between any two notes as I intend, then if both drop slightly, there is no net negative effect. In the EBVT in the middle part of the piano, you can get the Major 3rd and the Major 6th of any second inversion triad of any white key tonality except F to beat exactly the same.  Because you are from a different culture, you may know certain ideas by different names than we do in North America.  Instead of a scale whose note names are "do re mi fa sol la ti do", we think of the same thing as "C D E F G A B C".   The root position of the C Major triad is C-E-G.  The 1st inversion is E-G-C.  The second inversion is G-C-E.  In EBVT, the G3-E4 6th will beat exactly the same as the 3rd, C4-E4.  Other examples after completing the midrange are:  B3-E4-G#4,  A3-D4-F#4, G3-C4-E4, E3-B3-D#4, D3-G3-B3, B2-E3-G#3.  I also find other pairs of intervals which beat exactly the same.  Certainly, where the 5ths are pure in EBVT, the minor 3rd will beat exactly the same as the major 3rd in any root position minor triad.  One of the tests for a pure 5th is to prove this relationship. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I am persuaded that any uninteresting piano as many actual ones will benefit of these kind of temperament. May be only good pianos may be tuned in ET, as what I heard of good pianos tuned in H.T makes the piano sound like if it was older ( a little used). Not sure I can explain what I feel there. I understand too that the kind of tone you have in US pianos will accept more easily the HT than European instruments . If a piano have yet character, it may be exaggerated to add more contrast with a slightly uneven temperament. Beside, I totally agree that I find boring to try to tune absolutely perfect even chromatic progressions, and that it does not have much to do with music. A big advantage I feel there is to tune using the cycle of fifths is that it oblige you to be aware of color and musicality of the result. Cordier temperament for me is not really a temperament, only a method , as it does not take in account the differences between pianos it does not work in its theorical form always. EBVT (I will try it again) may well be much appreciated by musicians. I've find the black keys very nice, white keys a bit exaggerate sometime (crude), but I was happy of what I find. Thanks Isaac OLEG</BLOCKQUOTE> You last comment is interesting because if anything, it is the white keys which most people like the most.  I am not sure what you mean by the word "crude".  You may possibly misunderstand the meaning of that word in our language.  "Crude" is a cognate of the word "cru" in French.  But this is an example one of the "faux amis" (meaning "false friends" in English) between French and English.  The two words have different meanings in each of our languages. "Crude" in English means "brute" (which means "rough" in English) in French.  "Cru" in French means "raw" in English.  In most any HT, there is always the lament that the "smooth" ("suave" in French) or "sweet" ("doux" in French) must inevitably surrender to the "rough" ("brute" in French) or "sour" ("aigre" in French).  What do you call something rough, sharp and sourly out of tune in French?  Which words do you use to describe a sweet, gentle and pleasing sound in French? It seems to me that you do not like the tempering in the white keys.  You can adjust it to suit your taste or that of a customer.  Start with you F3-A3 3rd at 7 beats per second, the same as ET.  Then make your C4-E4 3rd, the G3-E4 6th and the G3-B3 3rd all beat at this same rate.  You can probably still keep the four pure 4ths and 5ths as pure or you may find that you need to temper them just a little, but still  less than in ET. I sometimes do a very mild Quasi Equal Temperament ("Quasi" means "almost") but still in alignment with the cycle of 5ths.  You can also use the same temperament sequence (also called "bearing plan" in English) as is used for the EBVT to do this (you could use it to tune ET for that matter) and you can also go the other direction and make a stronger early 19th Century type sound or and 18th Century sound.  Starting with your initial F3-A3 3rd as 4-5 beats per second would give you the early 19th Century quality and from 1-3 beats per second would give you an 18th Century style.  In the earlier styles, you can keep the pure 5ths and you will probably find that two more 5ths will become pure or very nearly so as a consequence. You can use my unique Tempered Octaves method with any of the above.  Find a sound based upon what you learn from my methods which pleases *you* and your ear rather than trying to ascertain whether you can tune exactly the way I do.  I vary the way I tune to suit the circumstances.  Making the piano "sing" and provide the most pleasing sound for the way it will be used is a more worthy goal in my opinion than to try to tune every piano the same way. I believe this can work well for the very finest down to the most ordinary pianos, no matter where they come from.  I would have to agree however, that I have also experienced that a very strong HT makes a modern piano sound "old".  To me, 1/4 Comma Meantone makes a modern grand sound like an "antique".  But there are circumstances where this effect is the desired one.  Certainly, however, using a very strong, early type HT without the consent and understanding of the customer is asking for trouble. My general goal with the EBVT however, is to make the modern piano sound more in tune, "cleaner", "clearer" and more musically appropriate than ET would and not have anyone object to anything about it, only respond positively.  I usually think more in terms of the EBVT being used for modern music rather than early, even though it is still compatible with those earlier forms and more musically appropriate than ET. Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, Wisconsin <A HREF="http://www.billbremmer.com/">Click here: -=w w w . b i l l b r e m m e r . c o m =-</A> </HTML>