<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2668" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey there! Hold hard! what's all this:  "especially on a work of art whose construction and design and = function is shrouded is so much mysticism" bit Monseur Farrell? A work of "art" = forsooth! When the strings have negative downbearing on the speaking side that's = not a "work of art" that's a downright problem! What the pianists extract from = the instrument is "art" - and in order that they should be able = to do so, the instrument should conform to all the criteria of the S&S = Workshop Manual. capisce?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(or am I not reading the message = correctly? :-) )</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Michael G.(UK)</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 09, 2005 = 2:18 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Stienway(Steinway) = d-rolled bridge saga- report</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Oh David! Have no fear! My eyes = bugged out when I read the original post. I was muttering all sorts of = expletives to myself as I read much of it. But I didn't say too much for two = reasons: 1) the original post indicated that Steinway reps were going to = inspect the piano in the near future - so I figured let's let them take a look = and see what they say; and 2) I wouldn't expect much better from them or any = other manufacturer anyway - especially on a work of art whose construction = and design and function is shrouded is so much mysticism.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had a similar experience when I = bought a new 1098 back in the mid 1990s. That piano had a full 1/4-inch of reverse soundboard crown, the pinblock was separated from the backposts (you = could slip a business card down into the crack), and on several notes in the = middle of the keyboard a little green man down inside the piano would come = out every time you played one of those notes and would ring an = annoying little bell.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Both the dealer and Steinway techs = said there was no problem with the reverse crown - I called NY several times asking = to speak to a technical representative and two of the three I talked to did not = know if Steinway pianos were supposed to have positive crown (concave on the rear/bottom). They did recognize the pinblock/backpost problem, but = their solution was to simply route out a small groove on the pinblock top = and glue in a strip of wood to cover up the crack (no clamps, no through-bolts, = and most importantly - no new piano). The head of Steinway's concert techs = (Patton I think, I forget his first name) from NY listened to the little bell = man and after quite a bit of poking and prodding decided it was likely the = v-bar casting and nothing could be done about it - however, the local dealer = tech had the nerve to suggest that we would "get used to it".</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So no, this letter wasn't news to me, = however it is indeed an interesting situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So if you're looking for comments at = this time, I'll bite - here goes!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lines with the ">>" are from = David R's original post on this topic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>Concerning the = bridge/downbearing, let's keep an eye<BR>>>on this if the buzzes have been eliminated for the<BR>>>time being. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Okay, here is our opening prayer that = the problem will just go away by itself - or at least the piano owner will not = notice it in the future.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>While it presents a situation = to<BR>>>keep an eye on, I do not want to make an immediate<BR>>>pronouncement that there is something wrong = there. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Believe me, nor will they EVER = "....make an immediate pronouncement that there is something wrong there." That's = what voicing needles are for!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>The<BR>>>primary thing = that manufacturers look for is<BR>>>the total composite bearing on = the front and back<BR>>>combined. This should, of course, be a positive<BR>>>bearing. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Should" be positive bearing? Does = this mean negative total bearing can be okay?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>Theoretically, there should = be positive front<BR>>>and back bearing. However, pianos seldom conform to<BR>>>the theoretically correct.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This was the ultimate. These words = clearly suggest that seldom does a new piano have positive front AND back = bearing. WOW! That's a mouthful. Think about that for a = minute. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let me tell you: Every piano that I = have put a new soundboard in has both front and rear positive bearing on every = string! Not only that, the bearing on every string falls within a relatively = narrow target range. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I guess if you throw a bunch of = spruce flitches, some glue, and some piano wire into a pot and stir it up, that would likely yield an assembly that "...seldom = conform(s) to the theoretically correct." This is lunacy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>I have taken many bearing<BR>>>measurements - on both good sounding and<BR>>>not-so-good sounding pianos. Some of the best sounding<BR>>>pianos have exhibited the measurements you describe<BR>>>below while some of the lesser sounding pianos<BR>>>are textbook perfect. The downward forces of the<BR>>>strings over the bridges (anywhere from 800 - 1100 lbs<BR>>>of force) cause each piano to develop its = own<BR>>>unique shape.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What that really means is that some = pianos appear to survive the manufacturing process and seem okay when they go out = the factory door. But some pianos have collapsed soundboards before they = even leave the factory. They really put a half-ton of downbearing on a new Steinway? That's a whole lot!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I guess this "unique (soundboard) = shape" is likely a key to each piano having it's own personality.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>Sometimes that "settling" can = be<BR>>>measured to exhibit what we technicians commonly cause<BR>>>bridge roll. That in itself is not a great cause<BR>>>for concern but rather a sign that we need to monitor<BR>>>this in case tonal issues arise consistently with a<BR>>>piano.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What the &*%# is this crap? Just = like we need to monitor a pinblock/back separation on a new piano? Maybe we just = need to monitor it and if the plate doesn't crack and the piano fold up like a = suitcase before the warranty period ends, we have no problem? Maybe = here is the real application for CA and bridge pins - if the strings keep = creeping up the bridge pins because of negative front bearing, tap the strings = down and glue them in place with CA! Personally, such "settling" would indeed = be a "great cause of concern" if that were my piano.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>In my experience, seating = and leveling the strings,<BR>>>hammer filing, voicing meticulously, = hammer spacing,<BR>>>and making sure the bridge pins are seated in<BR>>>the bridges alleviate any tonal problems 98% of the<BR>>>time. You MAY have one of the "2% pianos" there but<BR>>>let's wait and see if problems develop = again<BR>>>before we determine a course of action.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>No. IMHO, this is a mis-statement. = What really is meant is that you may be one of the 2% of <EM><U>piano owners</U></EM> = that won't give up and won't believe all the crap excuses and hand waving = and story telling that the manufacturer spews out in an effort to wear you down.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BUT. As I stated earlier. Let's not = jump to any conclusions. Let's wait to hear what transpires during the upcoming inspection......  ;-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</DIV></FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "David Skolnik" <</FONT><A href="mailto:davidskolnik@optonline.net"><FONT face=Arial size=2>davidskolnik@optonline.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> I = just had occasion to read this thread.  I need to leave for an early = <BR>> tuning (Steinway D, in fact), so I can't afford the tortured sessions = it <BR>> usually takes me to excrete even a few sentences.  = Perhaps I'll try later <BR>> this evening.  I am, however, dismayed that, = among other things, the <BR>> manufacturers response seems to elicit only = mild consternation on the part <BR>> of list responders.  I too = have gotten similar response, though not <BR>> written, over the years.  = Why is there not outrage on this list over this <BR>> situation?  Are = we still so afraid of the manufactures long reach and <BR>> memory? I am.  But what would the technical community's response be if they = <BR>> presented such claims at a class at a convention, or in their = promotional <BR>> material?  What is a warrantee = worth?   David R has made this <BR>> public.  Assuming his assessment = and observations are correct, what does it <BR>> mean for any of us (or = our clients) if we cannot see this situation <BR>> successfully resolved?<BR>> <BR>> David Skolnik</FONT> = </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>