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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It does not take that long in MO</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>James Grebe<BR>Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair<BR>Creator of =
Handsome
Hardwood Caster Cups, piano benches, writing instruments<BR>(314) =
608-4137<BR><A
href="http://www.JamesGrebe.com">WWW.JamesGrebe.com</A><BR>1526 =
Raspberry
Lane<BR>Arnold, MO 63010<BR>BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!<BR><A
href="mailto:pianoman@accessus.net">pianoman@accessus.net</A></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 11, 2005 =
9:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Grist for the =
Mill</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>5 cents per year? Quite unreasonable. With =
only one
exception, pianos that I tune regularly - at least once per year (and =
most
only once per year) - never need a pitch raise - and if any were =
5 cents
flat, it would need a pitch raise. Two cents or less per year would be =
my
estimate. Do you find pianos that have not been tuned for 10 years to =
be 50
cents flat? I find that it takes more like 25 or 30 years (or =
more) to go
50 cents flat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Oh, yeah? Well they laughed at Rodney Dangerfield, too! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Okay, maybe it's a not-so-stable piano, who knows? As we go =
about
tuning, let's all the folks with ETDs experiment a time or two ... =
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How far do you you turn a pin to bring a piano up 50 cents? =
Let's say
the sucker is only tuned every ten years, falling 5 cents a year =
(not
unreasonable, Shirley). That makes 10 tunings at 50 cents flat each =
time.
I'm thinking that's good for about 4 additional coils, minimum =
...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let the Cyberspace Electrons fly! It ain't over yet ... =
the fat
lady is still in the wings, eating wings, awaiting a curtain =
call.*</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV>
<DIV>Helmut Still On, One Minor Dent, in Salem, MO</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>*You can identify the call of the Western Red-Tufted Curtain by =
its
swooping hoop, rising half a semitone while the bird lifts its =
head up
about 135 degrees (Fahrenheit).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A =
title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 05/11/2005 8:18:33 PM =
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Grist for the =
Mill</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>A 30 degree turn of a tuning pin every =
year on a
stable piano? No way!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Calculate the pitch increase with a 30 =
degree
rotation on a 2/0 pin - even the 7.5 degree rotation - I =
suspect you
will very quickly realize your numbers are grossly =
excessive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Unless, of course, I am wrong. But I don't =
think
so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tune4u@earthlink.net =
href="mailto:tune4u@earthlink.net">alan
and carolyn barnard</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 11, =
2005 8:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Grist for the =
Mill</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>We recently had a long dialog on here about the actual =
changes in a
piano that has gone flat. There was much poo-pooing (can we say =
that on
TV?) from some folks of the notion that tuning pins turned
counter-clockwise when pianos go flat. Their arguments were
logical and some folks even produced mathematics to =
demonstrated
that pin reversal is unlikely.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>BUT ...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I was thinking about this on my way home from PTG chapter =
meeting
(2.5 hr drive) and came up with a little point of logic which =
suggests
that the pins MUST move. See what you think ...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Virtually all pianos go flat over longish time periods and
certainly are found flat more often than sharp if you go through =
a whole
cycle of season changes, i.e., an annual tuning. When =
we bring a
flat string up to pitch, it tends to increase the width of the =
coil
slightly every time we turn the pin. If the pin is =
turned one
full revolution--360 degrees--over years of tuning, this would =
add the
thickness dimension of the wire to the overall coil width =
and one
full wire wrap to the number of coils. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You with me?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So let's take a hypothetical piano string--say a very =
stable 1905
Howard upright A4 middle string--that has averaged (let's be
conservative...) falling flat enough that a 7.5 degree =
turn of
the pin was required each year to bring it up to pitch. Now =
7.5
degrees is a fairly small annual adjustment, just a little =
tweak,
actually. Ce n'est pas? It's only 1/6 if a quarter turn.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So, between 1905 and 2005, we have turned that string's
pin 100 X 7.5 = 750 degrees, more than two full =
turns.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How many old pianos do we run into that have five or more =
coils on
the pin? I never noticed any. In fact, most seem =
to have
the original 3 coils standing about as far from the plate as the =
day it
was strung--unless someone has hammered them in, in which case =
it's
still only about 3 coils!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Pause ... thinkin on that?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now strings must become ever so slightly thinner as they =
stretch,
especially in the earlier years. So, for the string to produce =
the same
pitch, the string tension required would be ever so slightly =
less over
time. This would have a very slight mitigating effect on the =
thought
puzzle proposed above. But nowhere near enough to explain =
100 years
of flatness, methinks. And ven if the string is stretching, you =
would
still be adding linear length to the coil every time.
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I believe, in fact, that about a 30 annual correction, or
more, would be very common. Think about your own =
real-world,
real-piano experience. Visualize pulling your tuning =
hammer
through a 30 degree arc, i.e., 1/3 of a quarter turn. =
That's
still a pretty darned small once-a-year adjustment. So, I =
think my
estimates here have been very, very conservative.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, at 30 degrees the piano would have to =
have a
total of 8+ full coils on every pin if the pin never turned
backward.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Your turn or, as we used to say in Viet Nam .... I n c o m =
i n g !
! ! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hunkered in the Bunker in Salem, MO</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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