<HTML>I went to the fabric store, and got educated. First of all, I must apologize. I gave the wrong price information. The packages of 10 needles was only a buck. The box of 100 pins was $2.50. I bought #7 needles. There were no #17 needles. However, there were #17 and #20 pins. In the interest of science, I splurged, and spent another buck on a package of assorted sizes, 3 - 9, just to see how they measured up. Here are the needle measurements. #3. = .024" #5. = .028" #7. = .032" #9. = .036" #17 pin came in at .026", and the #20's were bigger than that. (I didn't buy a box of #20 pins). Each needle size was also a mm longer than the previous size. It would seem that the pin sizes are different from the needle sizes. The #20 pins were longer than the #17 pins. Roger said he uses #3 needle. Pretty thin. But it probably goes in very easily. Roger, do you heat yours, like Ed does? Susan, what size do you use? And please explain again how you use one needle, and push it in gently. Doesn't that take forever then to voice a hammer? Wim PS.  I first went to a SEW AND VAC store (where they sell sewing machines and vacuum cleaners), looking for needles. The owner only had needles for sewing machines, but asked me what I wanted to sew? You should have seen the look on her face when I told what I use needles for. She probably laughed her head off after I left.</HTML>