<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> This was a descriptive picture you paint here John. And I your use of the term visualization actually. I think the more we can "visualize" the task of tuning before actually sitting down to tune, the better equipped we are to accomplish a tuning. Your triangle would work well for double octaves I would think... but what about triple octaves and other intevals ? You mention useing the Sat to explore your tunings a bit. I would greatly encourage you to do so... or use the RCT or even better (in my opinion) use Tunelab in a direct reference mode to see, in terms of coincident partial relationships, your ear and brain have been deciding is correct. I think you will find that ETD's can help you learn from an intellectual point of view a whole basket of new things that you can then use to enhance what your ear / brain can do now. You can also learn consistancy in a way difficult to do without an ETD. Dont get me wrong... I dont recommend that you stop relying on your ear.... quite the opposite really... but the ETD can help you train your ear in lots of ways... and very effectively as well. You just have to use it for that purpose and avoid the temptation to let it do the grunt work for you. Get ahold of whatever literature you can find that deals directly with tuning theory.. Rick Baldersin has a valuable little book you should have.. "On Pitch" in addition to the other basic texts that have chapters dealing with tuning theory. I guess the point I am trying to make is that any visualization is,  in the end, only as good as the information you have on which to base it on. The more pieces of the puzzle you have cleared up in your mind... the more you know about what to expect from a tuning in a holistic sense... the broader and more defined your picture becomes. And, me thinks... the more exciting and fun the never ending journey of getting better at it becomes. Keep at it and have fun !   "John M. Formsma" wrote: -- Richard Brekne RPT, N.P.T.F. Bergen, Norway <A HREF="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no</A>  </html>