<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Wow!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Why are you ETD ers so touchy.  I don't think I said one thing against tuners that use ETD's other than my experience with the old lady. Have you gotten so touchy about the mere mention of aural tuning you take it as an attack. The fact is that I have thought many times about investing in one. It would be especially nice as you say in noisy situations and I guess I can see that it probably could be a help in pitch raise and if you prefer to use them that is fine. I also know and have a number of friends that use them and are excellent "RPT" tuners.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>I will also admit to you that about the only thing I know about an ETD other than Siemens of course, is that it has a screen.  I know that you are now going to say I should go check them out.  Folks, I am 69 years old as of last week and going on 22. If I bought one of those things, my teacher, Dr. William Braid White would do a back flip in his grave.I have cut my work load down to three pianos a day. I retired when I quit working on Saturday. I also wouldn't think about tuning a piano before 10am or after 4 pm. I can tune a piano, usually in an hour to an hour and a half. I take in one action at a time and am backed up on action work for about 3 months--yeh! I do it because I like to do it and I do it when I want to.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Don't be so bloomin touchy ETDers.  I have got one question. How do you hear the piano when you have plugs in your ears?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>On page 57 under Tuning in the Steinway Technical service guide. ( you ought to get one) I quote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Steinway & Sons stresses the importance of aural tuning.  Developing piano tone is a mechanical and musical art. Solid aural tuning exercises and develops the musical ear, giving the technician a greater ability to master the methods used in tone building."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>You don't need to holler and get upset with me----Holler at Mr. Steinway.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Some day I think I will probably check the ETDs out if for no other reason but curiosity.  There is maybe one thing you ETDers can help me with. Just about every week or two I get a call from someone in the area who has just had their piano tuned and are very unhappy with the extreme last octave in the bass. This isn't just one tuner that I run into.  Invariably the last octave is so far sharp it is dissonant. Any kid with a years lessons would hear it. There is no way any tuner has listened to this. Is there something about ETDs that don't hear that last octave?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hang loose people. There are plenty pianos out there for all of us.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Ron</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tune4u@earthlink.net href="mailto:tune4u@earthlink.net">Alan Barnard</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:00 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here, but some of these posts sound kind of "aurallier than thou," to me, and </FONT><FONT size=4>I thought (and hoped) we'd gotten past that years ago.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>I personnally believe in being proficient in both aural and ETD tuning. But people who do use ETDs tend to use them most of the time. There is a reason for that: it's easier and for many operations, like one-pass pitch raises, it is faster and more accurate for most tuners. Also, in noisy environments you just can't beat 'em.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>While it is unquestionably true that the ear hears many things that machines do not (voicing and unwanted noise as prime examples), it is equally true that the machine has capabilities that the ear does not, e.g., string diagnostics, strength of partials (an aid to voicing), spectrum analysis of difficult unisons (high treble, especially), etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>So, ears? ETDs? I use both. I am amazed at the ability of so many outstanding aural-only tuners, and I am also cognizant that some of the finest concert performance tuners are, unabashedly, ETD tuners.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>The late, great George Defebaugh said (with reference to ETDs): "If you live long enough, every tuner will need these someday." Okay, and/or or maybe hearing aids.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=4></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Another point: Some types of hearing loss can be remarkably compensated by hearing aids. Others cannot. Depends on the pathology and neurology involved, I suppose.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Yet another point: I certainly have encountered pianos which were last tuned by very experienced aural tuners who were obviously just guessing at the extremes of the piano, especially the treble. If I get to that point, I will be thrilled to whip out the old Pocket PC, punch up Tunelab, and get that high treble dead on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>There is no shame, nor is there any particular nobility, in being either an ETD tuner or an aural tuner, and there is real advantage to being both, IMH?O.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Do we agree that ALL that really counts are results, i.e., sweetly tuned pianos, happy customers, and a jingle in the tuner's pocket?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Alan Barnard</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Salem, Missouri</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>P.S. And yes, by all means, get your hearing checked and protect what you have!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ronmay_rpt@bellsouth.net href="mailto:ronmay_rpt@bellsouth.net">RON MAY, RPT</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=joegarrett@earthlink.net href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net">joegarrett@earthlink.net</A>;<A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 03/17/2006 10:52:08 PM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Techs</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hopefully I can help everyone  or someone a bit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I received my second hearing aid about 6 months ago. I am a 69 year old Aural tuner who sees absolutely no benefit in ever owning an Tunlab or whatever. I am a concert tuner and to this day will put my tuning up against any of you. Among my customers are 4 phd's in piano performance, one master in piano performance, a large number of piano teachers etc.etc.etc. Oh Yeah---I am an rpt.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can remember my concerns about getting a hearing aid.  I wondered what my customers would think, "a piano tuner with a hearing aid" sure.  The fact is that over the past 8 years I have been wearing and aid.  I have never had one person ever even question it. I have discussed it with people, usually with customers who also had aids and wanted to know what kind I had and why I liked them. I, like everyone else that wears an aid never realized what I was missing until I received my first one. For what it is worth, I can still do a good job tuning a piano without the aids but they are such a great assistance I hate to be without them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There were certain pianos that I always noticed were harder for me to hear the beats in than others.  The absolute worst for me was a 50s vintage Acrosonic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It was my ear nose and throat physician that recommended originally that I get my hearing checked. The Audiologist worked within the same office as the physician. The test showed some loss over all but particularly nerve damage in some of the higher frequencies. The audiologist suggested that I try and aid.  Most of the Audiologist have a free 30 day+ trial. The very first piano I happened upon wearing my first aid was a 50s Acrosonic. When I started to set the first 5th I tweaked up the volume a little and "wow" those beats jumped out of that piano like I couldn't believe. It didn't take me long to become a true believer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would not recommend any tuner getting the newer digital, automatic volume control aids.  I have known other tuners that had them and had problems. I like the ability to adjust the volume as needed for the particular situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There are a lot of hidden benefits to wearing especially two aids. One is when I go to the movies and the sound system is so loud that everyone that attends needs new hearing aids when they leave.  I just turn my aids off and they act as ear plugs. They also come in handy when your wife is upset with you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would bet that over half of the piano technicians have at least some hearing loss. I would urge all of you to get your hearing checked every year and don't be afraid to give an aid a try. Believe me, your friends and especially your customers won't care. If there piano sounds great when you are ready to leave, they won't care if you wear ear muffs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A couple of signs for you that are signals that you have a loss:  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you have to raise the volume on the TV and the wife complains about it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you don't understand what your wife says from the kitchen while you are watching TV</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you keep having to ask people to repeat what they said.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and last but not least---If the beats don't jump out of your Acrosonic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With my aids, I hear things that many tuners don't.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Recently I got called out on a two year old Samick grand. The owner, a sweet old lady, had been complaining about the piano to the past two ETD tuners as well as the piano store. They told here that there was nothing wrong with the piano that what she was hearing was because of her hearing aids. She also had two aids. The piano had been tuned within two weeks of my arrival and twice over the month.. The tuning was uneven but my tuning was going fine until I started into the bass. As I passed into the bass break I noticed this terrible sound. The strings sounded more like a guitar. When I checked the bearing on the bass bridge, the first five notes you could stick paper between the bridge and the strings. There was a minus .020 down bearing  on the rear and +.005 on about 1/8 inch of the front of the bridge. The piano was sent back to the factory and the lady is thrilled with her new piano.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For God Sake---go get your ears checked people.Your ETDs don't hear this stuff. Half of you can't hear and don't know it. Piano tuners are probably among the absolutely worst hearing people in the world.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron May</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=joegarrett@earthlink.net href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net">Joseph Garrett</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 13, 2006 2:22 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Hearing Exam - was OhOh</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0>"You mentioned being "of a certain age" (it's a big club) and I'm wondering how your hearing is at that end of the piano. If you don't have an ETD but do have hearing loss at higher frequencies, you may need to bite the bullet and buy one. For what it's worth, I like Tunlab on my PocketPC because it is more affordable than others, has everything I need, and has a built in spectrum analyzer that REALLY helps you see what's going on in those top octaves."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Why is it so darned hard to go to the Audiologist and get your ears checked?!!! We all need to do that, at least, every other year. In our case, once a year is more logical. Sheesh! (And guys are worse than the ladies. Must be a "guy thing" or is it just plain ego getting in the way of logic?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Yeah, I'm back.<G> Been taking a sabbatical from youse guys/gals. (I can take only so much, ya know.<G>)</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)</DIV> <DIV>Captain, Tool Police</DIV> <DIV>Squares R I</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <P> <HR> <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>