<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2873" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hello Alan. What you suggest sounds like an excellent idea: holding down the lower note silently and then playing the one I'm trying to tune. This is similar to what I tried when I had difficulty tuning some of the lower bichord unisons in the bass which are difficult to judge when they sound so jangly. I ghosted the tones by holding the lower note key down silently and then played the appropriate upper note where the partials coincide and tuned the second bass string for zero beat with the first. I guess that what you are suggesting is similar, only the reverse, to this, ie this time the previously tuned lower note is the reference and it's "ghost" is beating with the upper note I am trying to tune. I will give this and the other things you suggest a try. Thanks a lot!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Robert</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tune4u@earthlink.net href="mailto:tune4u@earthlink.net">Alan Barnard</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:17 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Question About Setting Octaves in the High Treble</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>As you approach the last octaves, you can listen to 5ths (4ths, too, if you want) and to the 4:1 double octave directly. Example of one technique: Tuning C7 you can hold down C5 silently and play C7 a little forcefully, listening for zero beats at the C7 fundamental.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>In the last octave, 2:1 often works best. The 10th-17th would be the test ... if you could hear it, which, as you say, you can't. So play or ghost the lower note of the octave and listen for zero beats at the pitch of the top note. You may not actually "hear" beats but there is a "sweet spot" that you can learn to hear. All of this, of course, assuming that the top octaves aren't junky with false beats, no clear fundamental (you'd need Tunelab or a spectrum analyzer to see, visually, what this looks like--multiple spikes instead of one, clear 1st partial), excessive hammer noise, etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Many times, plucking the string with a fingernail makes it easier to hear than striking it with the hammer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Though you say you have trouble hearing 17ths, don't give up on practicing to hear them you will get better at it. For one thing, at high bps you really can't "hear the beat rate" as you put it, but you can perceive faster and slower--almost like you are "feeling" the beats. So don't neglect  your fast-beating tests, i.e., running 17ths.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>When I was first learning, I thought the bass was easy but that I would never "get" the treble. Now, I can fairly breeze through the treble but often fuss with the bass, especially in clunkers. Go figure.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>It'll come, it'll come ...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Alan Barnard</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Salem, Missouri</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rfinley@rcn.com href="mailto:rfinley@rcn.com">Robert Finley</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 05/04/2006 6:51:59 PM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Question About Setting Octaves in the High Treble</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am learning to tune the piano by ear and have a question about tuning octaves in the high treble and performing the tests on them. Lower down the piano and for an octave or two above the temperament octave I use a 3rd-10th test to check whether the beat rate of the 10th is the same as or slightly faster than the 3rd, to provide an octave that is correctly stretched. When I go higher in pitch I use a 3rd-17th test so that I can still hear the beats and do the comparison. The problem I am having is that when I go still higher, say in the final octave, I can hear the beats of the third but I can't hear the beats of the 17th, or any ripple at all. I can't therefore compare the two beats rates and check the octave. The higher note also dies away quicker so it makes it even more difficult. Is there any special technique I should use to be able to hear the beat rate of the 17th so that I can check the higher octaves? Thank you very much! for your help. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Robert Finley</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>