<html> <body> Robert, I almost posted this privately, but there are so many "newbies" on the list right now, I thought maybe this might help someone else, so I'm "opening" myself up! :-) Something I was told many, many years ago at a convention about the unison thing in the high treble, is to listen for a "bell" type of sound while playing the note fairly quickly, repeatedly, while manipulating the string. Don't even try to hear the beats. Just listen for that clear, bell sound to come in and then leave it! High unisons sometimes have some weird sound characteristics, so for most situations, that's very adequate. I tuned aurally for app. 25+ yrs. but I've noticed since I got an SAT III that in the high treble, the lights will react one way on the initial attack, but immediately after, they will move drastically one way or the other. BTW, I've never understood why that is. Anyone have an answer? When I was trained as a CTE, I was told to read the machine on the initial attack of the hammer. Not on a sustained sound. So that's what I still do on a tuning. I've tuned for a lot of big-name artists here at the university and "downtown" and  so far (knock on wood) :-D, I've never had a problem. Actually, the same type of "bell" sound on the attack can also be useful for octaves. I was a voice major in college and also did a lot of accompanying, so I have a pretty good ear. I used the bell thing even back then but in a critically important situation especially, I would run a 3-4 octave arpeggio to make sure the top note didn't sound flat to me as a musician! And IMO, that's the most important thing. One's ear! Hopefully, Conrad's flame suit won't be needed! :-D Avery Todd University of Houston At 02:20 PM 6/3/2006, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""> Hello Michelle. I am at a similar stage to yourself. I also have the Randy Potter course, and have tuned pianos that usually take about 2 hours to complete. I hope my speed will increase with practice. I have an Accutuner and found this helpful to check the accuracy of my tuning when I do some of it by ear. I now find that I am getting to the stage where the lights on the Accutuner move slowly or are fixed on some of the notes in the temperament, so I guess that shows that my accuracy is improving, and soon, hopefully, I will be able to tune entirely by ear. I also found it helpful to tune the temperament using the Accutuner and listen to the beat rates of the various intervals  This helped me to adjust them by ear because I know what the beat rates should sound like and how they should gradually get faster going up the keyboard.   The hardest thing I find so far is to tune the octaves and unisons in the highest part of the treble because the sound dies away so quickly and it is difficult to detect any ripple in order to compare beat rates. I have tried various tests that have been suggested but it's still difficult to do. Another challenge is getting the unisons in the treble to stay in tune. I apply firm test blows to equalize the string tension and set the pins by tuning slightly higher and bringing it down to zero beat, but they still tend to go out. I guess it requires a lot of patience, perseverance and practice.   Robert Finley <dl> <dd>----- Original Message ----- <dd>From: <a href="mailto:michelle@cdaustin.com">Michelle Smith</a> <dd>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">'Pianotech List'</a> <dd>Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:20 PM <dd>Subject: RE: A First Tuning <dd>Hi Marshall.  I’m going to answer this on the list because a couple of people have asked.  All of you seasoned tuners out there can commence cringing at my lack of experience.  <dd>  <dd>I decided to enter this field in January of this year, purchased the Randy Potter course, read ever darned word of the thing(!), and purchased a Cybertuner.  I’ve practiced extensively on my baby grand and two clunkers, have tuned the pianos of several family/friends, and have now tuned 2 customer pianos.  <dd>  <dd>While I do depend on my ETD very much, I take the time to check my intervals in the temperament area before moving on with the tuner.  I don’t feel quite ready to tune a customer piano completely by ear.  As far as time is concerned, it takes me 2 to 2.5 hours if I have to do a pitch raise. <dd>  <dd>I’ve also gotten involved with my local chapter, attended an Associate Seminar (I highly recommend one of these), and have a casual arrangement with a local rebuilder where I can visit/do work for free.  (Aka slave labor.) <dd>  <dd>If my husband were sitting here, he would tell you I’m obsessed.   A tuner friend told me with my musician’s ear and obsessive tendencies, I should do just fine in this business.  Ha Ha Ha! <dd>  <dd>Have a wonderful weekend. <dd>  <dd>Michelle Smith <dd>Bastrop, Texas <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <hr> <div align="center"></div> <dd>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of pianotune05 <dd>Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 9:48 PM <dd>To: Pianotech List <dd>Subject: Re: A First Tuning <dd>  <dd>Hi MIchelle, <dd>As a new tech myself, I'm curious. How long did it take you to tune this piano?  How many tunings did you do before you first paid one?  I'm just curious to see how others are doing? <dd>Marshall </dl></blockquote></body> </html>