<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"/> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"/>  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple> <div class=Section1> David,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Sounds to me like you’re pitch raising aurally, which is what I’m doing. From what you’re describing, I’d say that you are setting the wrong goal of getting A4 to be exactly at A440 after a pitch raise. My goal is for most of the piano to be reasonably close to pitch rather than A4 be exactly at A440.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I use a 33% overpull on most pianos at A4 – after getting the best average of how flat the treble and middle sections are. After pitch raising, the middle section will usually be very close to pitch, and A4 will be slightly flat. That means A4 has dropped during the pitch raise to below the original target. I think this drop is because things shift around as you’re pitch raising, and A4 changes as you set the temperament octave and move up toward A4 and beyond. Sometimes A4 will end up 5 cents flat – sometimes less. But most of the time, everything else in the middle is very close. So I don’t worry so much about A4 and focus on the bigger picture of the rest of the piano.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Now, another way I suppose you could do it is to use your 41% overpull for A4 only, then make A3-A4 beat 1.5 bps or so, which would mean a lower A3 around the 33% mark. (That should make things even out in the end, although I normally don’t do this -- just speculation.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Another thing is that the tenor doesn’t need as much overpull as the A4 region. So I consciously pitch raise those octaves a bit flat so they won’t be sharp during fine tuning. This is particularly noticeable on spinets and consoles, and I have enough experience with other pianos to guess pretty well.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> One thing that has really helped me do aural pitch raises is TO NOT WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT IT!!!  I’m “shouting” at myself too because I need the constant reminder not to pick nits until the piano is close enough in tune to tune it. ;-)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This is one area where the ETD users might have an edge on us aural people. However, the piano will still change for them just like it does for us. And, when your machine screws up for some unknown reason and calculates the pitch so that it ends up 4 cents sharp, then it has made more work rather than less. (This happened twice when I was using the Verituner. I thought my AccuFork was off b/c of a low battery, but it ended up that the Verituner had some screw-up that day that made it add 6 cents to what the overpull should have been. So I was fighting a sharp piano during the fine tuning – yuck! and trying to match it to another piano in the same room – double yuck!) Seems like the best policy is to schedule a real fine tuning after a few days when the piano has had time to settle down and behave. But, alas, most of my customers don’t normally do this.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> John Formsma<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> </div> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Nereson Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:24 AM To: List Pianotech Subject: post pitch-raise creep?<o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div>     I do many many many pitch raises -- almost every piano I tune, for the last 27 years.  (Almost everybody lets them go too long.)<o:p></o:p> </div> <div>     I've found that the ideal average overpull is halfway between 1/3 to 1/2 the amount sharp as it was flat.  In other words, a 41% overpull of the amount it was flat.  For an easy-figuring example, say the piano is 18 cents flat.  Half of that is 9 cents and a third of that is 6 cents.  Half-way between 6 and 9 is 7.5, so I pull it 7.5 cents sharp, and almost invariably A4 ends up right on 440 Hz, or very close.  <o:p></o:p> </div> <div>     However, if the piano is a half-step flat, I don't pull it 41 cents sharp.  That would be too much.  There's some degree of flatness where the usually-ideal 41% overpull has to taper off.  For a half-step pitch raise, I usually overpull so that A4 is beating about 5 beats sharp.  That's approximately 20 cents, I believe.  Sometimes more is required, sometimes less.  It varies.  That's here in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Denver</st1:place></st1:City> -- probably different elsewhere.  <o:p></o:p> </div> <div>     But what I often experience is:  even though after the pitch raise, A4 is at 440; after I've gone through the fine tuning and      pulled in unisons, when I go back to do the final check and touch up anything that has slipped, I find that the whole middle section is sharp!  Why?<o:p></o:p> </div> <div>     --David Nereson, RPT<o:p></o:p> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> <blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html>