<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would tend to agree with the 40% overpull only in the way you are using it  (tuning only one center string) and then unisons, then the  bass, but only on younger pianos and with a limit of 30 cents under pitch. to help avoid string breakage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I find that measuring A2 and taking half that value on my SAT lll,  gives me a bass only a few cents off. Then remeasure at the tenor break and at B4, first treble, and C6.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The result usually is a piano that sings again, with just a little touch up on a pitch raise of up to 30 cents,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some times it is the bass that needs raised to the tenor, and other times the tenor needs adjusting either up or down. Then another fine tuning and string seating in one month when the owner gets their next pay check <g>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some times one gets lucky up to 50 cents but usually it is a two pass deal over 30 cents.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Oh yes, C7 to the top I tune so that the right string ( first tuned ) middle string (second tuned ) are just a tad sharp of what the red lights show is the target.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Then the left is tuned to the stopped lights. By the time the left string is pounded in the other strings have fallen, and if I am lucky, match the last tuned string.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Different Strokes" <G></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe Goss RPT<BR>Mother Goose Tools<BR><A href="mailto:imatunr@srvinet.com">imatunr@srvinet.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.mothergoosetools.com">www.mothergoosetools.com</A></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dnereson@4dv.net href="mailto:dnereson@4dv.net">David Nereson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 09, 2006 5:56 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: post pitch-raise creep?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Farrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 07, 2006 6:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: post pitch-raise creep?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Doesn't sound right. When doing the PR, are you using an ETD? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=4>Only to measure the amount it's flat and to tune the initial A4 sharp by 40% of the amount it was flat.</FONT>  </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>Unisons as you go? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>No.  All the middle strings, then all the unisons, then the bass, which sometimes needs very little raising.  I can do it fastest that way.    </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>41% is very large percentage for overpull. Most ETDs recommend between 20% and 35%, depending on the area of the scale.<SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4>And I say that's usually not enough.  If it's 20 cents flat, half of that (50%) is 10 cents, and a third of that (33%) is about 7 cents.  So I pull A4 halfway in between those numbers, or about 8 1/2 cents sharp, which is roughly 40% of the amount it was flat.  (I notice in other posts, some tuners use up to 37% in some areas of the piano.)  Then I do the pitch raise, all the octaves, then all the unisons.  Almost every time, A4 ends up right on 440, and the rest of the rough tuning is very close.   So I go ahead and do the tuning (fine tuning).  It's after I'm done with the fine tuning, when I go back to check for anything that has slipped, that I find the middle of the piano and the low tenor has crept sharp by a beat or even two.  </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Immediately after the PR, do you check the middle section for pitch? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>Yes, and it's almost always right on 440, so I proceed with the fine tuning.  It's after the fine tuning that I find it has crept sharp in the middle.  The low tenor is also quite sharp, so now I leave that area a bit flat during the pitch raise.  And during the tuning (fine tuning), the SAT always seems to "tune" the bass too flat, even if the bass didn't need a pitch raise.  </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>If it is at or near target, there is no reason for it to creek up. <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>One wouldn't think so.  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>How large a pitch gain are you talking about? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>Anywhere from just a few beats flat to a half-step flat.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>I've never noticed such a phenomena.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=4>That's "phenomenon."  Phenomena is plural.</FONT>  <FONT size=4>(Just for your own info.)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial size=4>--David Nereson, RPT</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>    </SPAN><SPAN class=114315606-07072006></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>