<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV> <DIV>David:</DIV> <DIV>    Since different techs use different pin setting techniques, it's hard to say exactly how much over pull will work for every situation.  During the last few weeks, there was a discussion of overpull percentages with RCT users.  Some had to adjust the overpull because their pianos were coming out too sharp using the default percentages.  </DIV> <DIV>    For years, I had been using my SAT for pitch raises using the single string method described in the SAT manual.  That is, doing the unisons at the end.  I would pull the bass 25%, and mentally calculate the rest of the string overpull at 30%.  I would carefully set the pins as close as I could.  After pulling the unisons in, I would end up sharp in the low tenor, less sharp in the rest of the tenor section, and the treble came out ok.  I used to reduce the overpull in the tenor accordingly (lots of mental gymnastics here).  It seemed to work for me.  </DIV> <DIV>    Then, I got the Pocket RCT, and began doing unisons as I went along.  I found that doing this produced a more accurate result.  After a few months of PRCT, I went back to my SAT and began using the string by string method.  The result was that my SAT pitch raises began to come out much closer to pitch than before.  Since the SAT has a default 25% automatic overpull, I use that in the bass.  In the low tenor, I use 25% also, maybe adding a few cents more (maybe closer to 28% overall).  Starting in the treble, I go back to 30% for the rest of the strings.  </DIV> <DIV>    I spend much more time in the pitch raise than the final pass because I find that the result is much closer if I do that.  If I spend less time on the pitch raise, not being as careful, I have to spend more time on the final pass.  I do set the pins  while pitch raising.</DIV> <DIV>    Doing the unisons string by string may seem tedious (which is why I resisted doing so for years), but the result is more accurate in my experience.  YMMV.</DIV> <DIV>    Just my $.02.</DIV> <DIV>    </DIV> <DIV>    Paul McCloud</DIV> <DIV>    San Diego</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dnereson@4dv.net href="mailto:dnereson@4dv.net">David Nereson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 07/09/2006 4:58:54 AM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: post pitch-raise creep?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Farrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 07, 2006 6:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: post pitch-raise creep?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Doesn't sound right. When doing the PR, are you using an ETD? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=4>Only to measure the amount it's flat and to tune the initial A4 sharp by 40% of the amount it was flat.</FONT>  </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>Unisons as you go? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>No.  All the middle strings, then all the unisons, then the bass, which sometimes needs very little raising.  I can do it fastest that way.    </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>41% is very large percentage for overpull. Most ETDs recommend between 20% and 35%, depending on the area of the scale.<SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4>And I say that's usually not enough.  If it's 20 cents flat, half of that (50%) is 10 cents, and a third of that (33%) is about 7 cents.  So I pull A4 halfway in between those numbers, or about 8 1/2 cents sharp, which is roughly 40% of the amount it was flat.  (I notice in other posts, some tuners use up to 37% in some areas of the piano.)  Then I do the pitch raise, all the octaves, then all the unisons.  Almost every time, A4 ends up right on 440, and the rest of the rough tuning is very close.   So I go ahead and do the tuning (fine tuning).  It's after I'm done with the fine tuning, when I go back to check for anything that has slipped, that I find the middle of the piano and the low tenor has crept sharp by a beat or even two.  </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Immediately after the PR, do you check the middle section for pitch? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>Yes, and it's almost always right on 440, so I proceed with the fine tuning.  It's after the fine tuning that I find it has crept sharp in the middle.  The low tenor is also quite sharp, so now I leave that area a bit flat during the pitch raise.  And during the tuning (fine tuning), the SAT always seems to "tune" the bass too flat, even if the bass didn't need a pitch raise.  </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>If it is at or near target, there is no reason for it to creek up. <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>One wouldn't think so.  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>How large a pitch gain are you talking about? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>Anywhere from just a few beats flat to a half-step flat.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>I've never noticed such a phenomena.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=4>That's "phenomenon."  Phenomena is plural.</FONT>  <FONT size=4>(Just for your own info.)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial size=4>--David Nereson, RPT</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>    </SPAN><SPAN class=114315606-07072006></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>