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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Boy Paul are we on the same page!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I think speed of the tuning lever in getting the pin to
move is also an issue here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Slow pull, I think has a tendency to put more twist
in the pin, that is later released, allowing the pitch to drop. Those tuners who
are able to get the pin to snap forward, can tune softer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Related, soft pins from our Chinese frends are harder to
feel move at the 3 o'clock position and moving to 11 to 12 o'clock helps a
lot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Joe Goss RPT<BR>Mother Goose Tools<BR><A
href="mailto:imatunr@srvinet.com">imatunr@srvinet.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.mothergoosetools.com">www.mothergoosetools.com</A></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pmc033@earthlink.net
href="mailto:pmc033@earthlink.net">pmc033@earthlink.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:dnereson@4dv.net, Pianotech List">dnereson@4dv.net, Pianotech
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 09, 2006 7:13 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: post pitch-raise
creep?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>David:</DIV>
<DIV> Since different techs use different pin setting
techniques, it's hard to say exactly how much over pull will work for every
situation. During the last few weeks, there was a discussion of
overpull percentages with RCT users. Some had to adjust the overpull
because their pianos were coming out too sharp using the default
percentages. </DIV>
<DIV> For years, I had been using my SAT for pitch
raises using the single string method described in the SAT manual. That
is, doing the unisons at the end. I would pull the bass 25%, and
mentally calculate the rest of the string overpull at 30%. I would
carefully set the pins as close as I could. After pulling the unisons
in, I would end up sharp in the low tenor, less sharp in the rest of the tenor
section, and the treble came out ok. I used to reduce the overpull in
the tenor accordingly (lots of mental gymnastics here). It seemed to
work for me. </DIV>
<DIV> Then, I got the Pocket RCT, and began doing
unisons as I went along. I found that doing this produced a more
accurate result. After a few months of PRCT, I went back to my SAT and
began using the string by string method. The result was that my SAT
pitch raises began to come out much closer to pitch than before. Since
the SAT has a default 25% automatic overpull, I use that in the bass. In
the low tenor, I use 25% also, maybe adding a few cents more (maybe closer to
28% overall). Starting in the treble, I go back to 30% for the rest
of the strings. </DIV>
<DIV> I spend much more time in the pitch raise than
the final pass because I find that the result is much closer if I do
that. If I spend less time on the pitch raise, not being as careful, I
have to spend more time on the final pass. I do set the pins while
pitch raising.</DIV>
<DIV> Doing the unisons string by string may seem
tedious (which is why I resisted doing so for years), but the result is more
accurate in my experience. YMMV.</DIV>
<DIV> Just my $.02.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Paul McCloud</DIV>
<DIV> San Diego</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dnereson@4dv.net href="mailto:dnereson@4dv.net">David Nereson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 07/09/2006 4:58:54 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: post pitch-raise
creep?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On Behalf
Of </B>Farrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 07, 2006 6:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Pianotech List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: post pitch-raise
creep?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Doesn't sound right. When doing the PR, are
you using an ETD? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT
size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=4>Only to measure the amount it's flat and to tune the initial A4
sharp by 40% of the amount it was flat.</FONT>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>Unisons as you go? <SPAN
class=237493909-09072006><FONT
size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006>No. All the middle strings, then all the
unisons, then the bass, which sometimes needs very little raising. I
can do it fastest that way. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>41% is very large percentage for
overpull. Most ETDs recommend between 20% and 35%, depending on the area
of the scale.<SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT
size=3> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006><FONT size=4>And I say that's usually not
enough. If it's 20 cents flat, half of that (50%) is 10
cents, and a third of that (33%) is about 7 cents. So I pull A4
halfway in between those numbers, or about 8 1/2 cents sharp, which is
roughly 40% of the amount it was flat. (I notice in other
posts, some tuners use up to 37% in some areas of the piano.) Then I
do the pitch raise, all the octaves, then all the unisons. Almost
every time, A4 ends up right on 440, and the rest of the rough tuning
is very close. So I go ahead and do the tuning (fine
tuning). It's after I'm done with the fine tuning, when I go back to
check for anything that has slipped, that I find the middle of the piano
and the low tenor has crept sharp by a beat or even two.
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Immediately after the PR, do you check the
middle section for pitch? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT
size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN class=237493909-09072006>Yes, and it's
almost always right on 440, so I proceed with the fine tuning. It's
after the fine tuning that I find it has crept sharp in the middle.
The low tenor is also quite sharp, so now I leave that area a bit flat
during the pitch raise. And during the tuning (fine tuning), the SAT
always seems to "tune" the bass too flat, even if the bass didn't need a
pitch raise. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>If it is at or near target, there is
no reason for it to creek up. <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT
size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006>One wouldn't think so.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
face=Arial><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>How large a pitch gain are you
talking about? <SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT
size=4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006>Anywhere from just a few beats flat to a
half-step flat.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006> </SPAN>I've never noticed such a
phenomena.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=4>That's
"phenomenon." Phenomena is plural.</FONT> <FONT size=4>(Just
for your own info.)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial size=4>--David
Nereson, RPT</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=237493909-09072006></SPAN><SPAN
class=237493909-09072006><FONT face=Arial
size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV>
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