<html> <body> Hi Sam, I'm going to go ahead and post my thoughts on this before the thread gets too old. Because you indicate you're pretty new at this, I'm going to go into some detail and hope that you, and maybe some others, will find something that will be useful somewhere along the way. Warning: It's kind of long! At 09:12 PM 7/21/2006, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hello all, The other day, I tuned an old Story and Clark upright. When I opened it, I found the business card of the last tech who tuned it. It was dated 07/26/1976, almost exactly 30 years ago. Norm Larson of South Haven, Minnesota, are you still around? A gave it a quick inspection, and it appeared to be in decent shape. I vacuumed it out for the customer. There didn't appear to be any rust on the tuning pins or the strings. Most of the hammers didn't have any grooves, and those that did were very slight. The soundboard didn't have any cracks. I didn't dare raise it to pitch because it had been so long since it was tuned. </blockquote> First, let me say that I normally will not tune a piano "to itself" unless there's some structural reason not to (very loose pins, very rusty strings, evidence of previous string breakage, etc.). With appropriate warnings to the customer about the possibility of string breakage & their agreement to pay the extra charges involved in bringing a neglected instrument up to pitch, of course. Your customer might not be a piano player/musician but he might have friends who are. I don't want some good musician friend coming over to play the "just tuned" piano and after hearing it, says, "I thought you just had this piano tuned!?" There goes my reputation with that musician! Also, if there are children learning to play, it's important for a piano to be up to pitch. Their ears are being trained as well as their fingers! On the rare occasion that I've tuned a piano to itself, here's the basic process I used for over 25 years before I started using an ETD. The low bass strings on a piano can only be a little flat before they start sounding very "tubby", so since the bass is usually not as flat as the middle and treble, I would usually start with low A (A0) and tune the A's up to A4 and use that as my starting pitch. You might also want to tune the higher A's just to get an idea if the treble is appreciably flatter than the middle and lower sections. Tune a very quick temperament and do your octaves and unisons from there. One warning. Using this method (or any other, for that matter), it's still likely the upper third or so of the instrument is going to be flat enough to still need two passes even if you're only tuning it to itself. On a normal pitch raise, pulling sharp, if the piano was severely flat as well as old, after setting the temperament, I might just tune all the F's, then all the F#'s, etc. (I used an F to F temperament.) My thoughts on this were that I was spreading out the tension change more evenly on the soundboard and plate. I don't know if that's really true or not, but that was why "I" did it that way. Then go back and pull in the unisons. I'd usually start with the bottom temperament note and go up. Then go down from the temperament tuning the bass. Don't worry about getting a clean unison. They're going to change anyway. Actually, I'd usually even pull the unisons in a little sharp because I knew the middle string had already dropped some. Just pull in the unisons as fast as you can go. The point here is not wasting time trying to get really clean unisons because on a severe pitch raise, they're going to change! They're going to change some in other scenarios also, but that's a 'nuther story! :-) When I'm doing a big pitch raise on an old instrument, if more than one string in the middle broke, then I'd back off and tune it low. If none broke until the high treble, I'd just go ahead and let them break and then replace them. I'd also inform the customer that this is what I'd be doing. I'm going to assume that you tune aurally since you didn't mention how many cents flat the instrument was. If an instrument that age is severely flat, like 75-100 cents or more, and I wanted to be cautious, I might not pull it sharp the first time. Just pull it up to your fork, set a very quick temperament (1-2 min.) and go. It's going to change anyway! That way you can get a good idea of how the pins feel and how the strings feel as they're being stretched. You'll probably eventually run into an instrument where the strings feel like they've have no more stretch in them and if you continue, they're going to break. Some usually will. In a case like that, I'll inform the customer of the situation, back off the pitch some and then tune it to itself. You really have no choice, except for a restringing. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I just tuned it to itself. It was the most horribly out of tune piano I have tuned in my short career. </blockquote> Because of what you said here, if you don't already, let me advise you to get at least a small roll of all the plain wire sizes and all the tools needed to replace broken strings! I made that mistake on my first tuning for pay! Needless to say, after I finally found someone to come in and replace the string for me, I didn't make any money on that tuning! In a case like your's, the first thing I would do is to check some of the pins on the worst notes to make sure the "horrible out-of-tuneness" was not caused by loose tuning pins. But because of what you mention below, it doesn't sound like it was in this case. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">When I was over, it still sounded terrible to me, but the customer was thrilled. He said it was the best he ever heard it sound (he's not a piano player). I was honest and didn't pretend that I was happy with how it sounded. I told him that it would take several tunings to make it sound good. He's having me back in six months to give it another tuning.</blockquote> I agree with Bob and others on this. Six months is too long. Even tuning it to itself, you probably had a lot of strings that were too flat to stay with only one tuning. That's probably why it still didn't sound good to you. I'd have gone for 1-3 months maximum. After a large pitch raise (pulling sharp and going over it 2+ times), I try to get the customer to have it retuned in at LEAST 1-3 months! One month is best. Then again in app. 6 months. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">The pins seemed to twist before they moved, making the instrument very hard to tune. When I moved my tuning hammer, the pitch would go up, then go down when I released it. </blockquote> If the pins are tight in the block, this would be a fairly normal thing. One can almost always hear the pitch change before you can feel the pin inside the block! No matter what the pitch does though, the pin MUST move inside the block! <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I ended up very carefully applying constant pressure to the tuning hammer until I felt the tuning pin turn a little. It worked for me, though it took a long time. As far as hammer technique goes, was that something you would have done?</blockquote> That's basically correct and everyone goes through having to learn to deal with that to set the strings and pins. Some use a smooth pull method like you said you did, some use a "jerk" type of method and still others use an impact hammer. One problem you're going to have now though, after doing the "tune it where it was" tuning, is ever getting him to agree to the extra expense of getting the instrument up to normal pitch. About the only way you might could get him to do that now, is if there are children taking lessons, as I said above. Also, if it ever needs to be played with any other instrument besides a stringed one, it's not going to be possible. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Also, the piano had a sticker that boasted a 50 year guarantee on the sound board. How the heck could Story and Clark make a 50 year guarantee on the sound board? They'd have no idea what conditions the thing would be kept in. What did they make the thing out of? 2" thick plywood?</blockquote> I believe Ron N. answered this one very eloquently! Diplomatically, also! :-D This is just a way that worked well for me for many years. YMMV. Now on a pitch raise, I use my SAT III and start at the bottom and go up, unisons as I go. Others do it differently. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Sam Choy</blockquote> Avery Todd </body> </html>