<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Sustain pedal lift ratio</TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <STYLE type=text/css></STYLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Great post Ron!! It came at just the right time as I knew I was going to be troubleshooting a very stiff sustain pedal.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>I was just out today checking it out. It's on an S&S M. I measured the system and t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>he numbers are: (inches)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>A/B = 4"/3.25" = 1.23</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>C/D = 10.3"/7.5" = 1.37</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006></SPAN><SPAN class=218181703-17112006></SPAN><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000>E<SPAN class=218181703-17112006>/F = 2.25"/3" = .75</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000><SPAN class=218181703-17112006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Lift ratio = 1.26 to 1</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>What I found out later was that the piano had been in storage for awhile and for some reason the trapwork levers had been removed from the piano while it was being stored. The owner, in a moment of "clean out the garage madness," inadvertently tossed out the levers. I'm guessing that someone bought new levers and pivot blocks from S&S and installed them. When he told me about his tossing the levers, things began to click into place - unfinished levers and pivot blocks, writings on the levers for such things as "coil spring" next to the place where the coil spring goes, etc. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000><SPAN class=218181703-17112006>My plan for this is first to replace the old-style pitman-through-the-bushed-hole with the new style pitman with a 1" hole through the keybed for clearance. This will bring the tray leverage a bit closer to 1:1 (but I'm guessing it will still be 0.9:1 at best). Then the pivot brackets will need to be moved closer (4" or more if it's possible) to the pitman so the trap lever ratio will be more like 6.3"/3.5" = 1.8. Still, even with these changes this system will be more like 2:1.</SPAN> <SPAN class=218181703-17112006>There's presumably n</SPAN><SPAN class=218181703-17112006>othing to do with the pedals as they are normal. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000><SPAN class=218181703-17112006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000><SPAN class=218181703-17112006>It'll be better, but still not great. I'll measure some other S&S Ms that I have at my school for some comparisons.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000><SPAN class=218181703-17112006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#800000><SPAN class=218181703-17112006></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Any suggestions?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Thanks so much for this information.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>Alan</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000>--Alan McCoy, RPT<BR>Inland Northwest Chapter<BR>Spokane, WA<BR>ahm@webband.com </FONT></P></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=218181703-17112006><FONT face=Garamond color=#800000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Ron Overs<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 10, 2006 11:04 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech List<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BULK] Re: Sustain pedal lift ratio<BR><B>Importance:</B> Low<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Hi all,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>At 10:48 AM +0100 10/11/06, RicB wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">... I'd like to hear more about how you go about designing a change in the lever systems.  I remember my brother Joe doing this to accommodate pianodisk systems... tho I dont think he was concerned directly with the lifting ratio... more a matter of making everything fit.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Still.. this might be a nice addition to ones technical toolbox as it were....</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>At 5:01 AM -0600 10/11/06, Conrad Hoffsommer wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">I second this. The difference in feel, usually expressed as "heavy"/"light", has been noted more lately by both students and faculty.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The lift ratio and the resistance of the pedal system are two separate issues, regarding the performance of the sustain pedal. Most manufacturers fit a return spring to the damper lift tray, the sustain lever directly under the keybed, or both. The return spring on the damper lift tray can create problems over the longer term, since its not usually possible to position the spring directly over the push rod. When the return spring is offset from the push rod, the damper lift tray can develop a compression-set warp over a number of decades. This is a long term problem which won't usually occur while those who built the piano are alive. Eventually, once the builders are lying quietly in a box on a hillside somewhere, some repair tech in a workshop might be found whining about another case of poor design staring them in the face, as they deal with a warped damper lift tray.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I prefer not to fit a return spring on the damper lift tray for the reasons above mentioned. For those damper systems where the push rod is located via a bushed guide hole in the keybed, it is best to convert these by drilling a larger clearance hole in the keybed and fitting a push rod with a guide pin in each end. This will be quieter, creating less friction and noise. Its a good policy to make and fit a new pin-guided push rod when rebuilding pianos with the older style bushed push rod.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>As mentioned in my previous post, most pianists seem to prefer a pedal/damper lift ratio of between 2.5 to 3.25 to 1. When making an adjustment to the ratio, I prefer to set it between 2.5 to 3.0. But for some pedal systems 3.25 is about as high a ratio as can be achieved using a single lever under the keybed. So, in these cases I'll go as low as 3.25 because the double lever design, as used in the Grotrian 275 conversion image I posted yesterday, is a whole lot more trouble.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I check an existing damper lift ratio by measuring the damper-head lift, and measuring the damper pedal travel from the end of the lost motion to full lift. The pedal travel is divided by the damper-head lift to arrive at an overall ratio.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>If I need to revise the ratio, the formula for calculating the lever lengths is similar to the formula I use for calculating action ratios. Each pair of lever lengths is divided one into the other, with the three results being multiplied together to arrive at an overall ratio.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The three lever lengths are the pedal pair, the lever under the keybed pair, and the damper tray pair. Here's a graphic to show the various lever lengths A - F.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV align=center><IMG src="cid:218181703@17112006-34AD"></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The pedal/damper lift ratio is calculated using the following formula.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV align=center>(A/B) X (C/D) X (E/F)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>For many damper systems, the push rod will come through the keybed to contact the damper tray almost directly under the damper wire flange. In these instances you can disregard the lever lengths F and E, giving them a value of 1. There will be some small variation in the actual ratio due to variations in the lever angles from piano to piano. However, the variation is too small to worry about in practice with respect to the ratio, but the lever angles are critical with regard to friction.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>If the push rod is fitted with guide pins the angle of the push rod, with respect to the damper tray and damper lever, won't be of much consequence, since it will contribute very little friction. The damper lever under the keybed is a different matter. I prefer to set this lever so that it is horizontal at half damper lift. This arrangement will minimise friction between the lever and the lyre push rod. For our own 225 piano, we machine away the lower-half of the damper lever thickness where it meets the push-rod capstan, and lengthen the lyre push-rod so that the lever is horizontal at half damper lift. This results in less friction and less likelihood of squeaks developing between the lyre push-rod capstan and the lever bearing-felt.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I hope you have found the above mini-doc to be useful, since this is the first time I've written-up the procedure onto something more substantial than a piece of scrap of paper around the workshop. However, its been good for me to document the procedure.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>For those of you who would like to know how I produced the graphic and imported it into the Eudora programme, here is the procedure.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>1) Draw the graphic using my old 2D CAD programme.</DIV> <DIV>2) Capture a screen image of the drawing and save it to the desktop as a TIFF file.</DIV> <DIV>3) Open the TIFF file in Photoshop, resample, reduce in size and save as a jpg file.</DIV> <DIV>4) Drag the jpg file into the Eudora email document.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Ron O.</DIV><X-SIGSEP><PRE>-- </PRE></X-SIGSEP> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0000ff size=+1><B>OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000><I>   </I></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><I>Grand Piano Manufacturers</I></FONT><FONT color=#000000><BR>_______________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=-2><BR></FONT><FONT color=#000000>Web http://overspianos.com.au</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000>mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au<BR>_______________________</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>