<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"/> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"/> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"/> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="address"/> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="Street"/>  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=blue> <div class=Section1> Hi all,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I’m going to put one last perspective in here (I’ve been away and am only just catching up with pianotech). It’s been a great thread and I’ve really enjoyed following it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I’m not convinced the end is nigh – otherwise I’d be out somewhere else – retraining!!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> My ex-wife was a school music teacher and had a class each 10 week term which was a ‘taster’ for 12-13 year olds who hadn’t ever played piano or keyboard. The resource available to her was a class set of 15 keyboards with headphones (often referred to by our local sales guys as ‘Wally Boxes’) and a Young Chang U131 upright. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> She related the following to me – which happened to some degree every time the class was run.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> For the first five or so weeks, all the arguments in the class were over who wanted to play which keyboard. They wanted to hear all the whiz bang noises each keyboard made. Once that was done with, towards the end of the term, they were usually fighting over the piano – it was the only thing that offered them any challenge, and my ex also thought that they were connecting with the true ‘nature’ of the instrument – ie that they were producing the sound, they were physically connected with the keys that were connected eventually to the hammer that actually struck the string that made the sound – naturally!!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> They were getting off on the kinaesthetic possibilities.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This concept continues for anyone who studies the piano – and I know I’ve had that wondrous experience of sitting at a beautifully prepared piano and playing like never before, purely because it was offering me - at an unconscious level  - so many possibilities to explore. This can never happen on an electronic piano – all they offer is a variety of recorded notes to play back. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The human ear craves diversity and subtlety. The keyboard is just a Xerox and will never be able to give that to a sufficient degree. Sure, the really expensive ones come close, but there’s still not that organic connection. Yamaha came really close with the GT2 which had a C series action without hammers or strings, it had very clever sensing technology and a massive piano sample – but the end cost blew them out – especially when you consider the short life span of these appliances.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> David Lawson hit the nail on the head, concert artists don’t play them (much – certainly not in public). The few that I have met that use digitals use them for note learning or composition. Another voice (sorry – I can’t remember whose) observed that they didn’t play theirs for pleasure.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I’ve found that many customers discussing this with me can see the rationality of these arguments and go on to purchase ‘the real thing’. The public need education, and when they have the good sense to talk to us about it, they get another perspective than that offered by the dealer (who considers little else than profit and low costs – both available from digitals, harder to get from acoustic pianos).<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> To return to the point of the thread…<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I think digitals have pretty much already replaced the bottom end of the market – not necessarily a bad thing. The real challenge is for dealers to follow up their clients to up grade at an appropriate time – hopefully before the child/student has given it up!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Our challenge is to raise our skill levels to accommodate the higher end of the piano market – or select our specialist area and work in that. Or to have a diverse enough range of products/services to earn a living from – but that’s another thread!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Ooops there goes my dime…<o:p></o:p> Cheers<o:p></o:p> <div> Mark Bolsius  ARPT<o:p></o:p> Bolsius Piano Services<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Email    <a href="mailto:mark@bolsius-pianoservices.com.au">mark@bolsius-pianoservices.com.au</a><o:p></o:p> Ph         02 6259 3624<o:p></o:p> Fax       02 6259 3617<o:p></o:p> Skype   bolsi-piano<o:p></o:p> Post      <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">PO Box</st1:Street> 182</st1:address> <o:p></o:p>              Jamison Centre  ACT 2614<o:p></o:p>              <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> </div> From: Leslie Bartlett [mailto:l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2007 1:10 PM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: FW: electronics replacing pianos?<o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> Danny was ptg for several years, but living nearly a hundred miles from the chapter, and now working more in sound and electronics, is no longer active. but I sent him the thing below, and he offered his reply.  His email is below if you wish to respond to his viewpoints.   I'm not smart enough to know.<o:p></o:p> les <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">bartlett</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> </div> From: Danny Moore [mailto:catalinasound@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:21 PM To: l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: electronics replacing pianos?<o:p></o:p> There are a couple of things that always strike me as peculiar any time this discussion comes up.  First, digital recording and current “high-end” microphone technology will certainly capture anything and everything that even the finest piano can produce.  Many of the big guys are using 24-bit depth at 192 KHz sample rate.  That’s a faithful reproduction of 96,000 hz and a noise floor greater than -96 db – what’s that, the 28th partial of C8?  Our hearing peaks out around 20K if we’re young and haven’t spent the last 35 years playing in rock bands.  <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> Second, when we say that digital pianos don’t sound as good as the real thing, let’s compare apples to apples.  We invariably make that comparison to a S&S B or D, or perhaps a Kawai EX at a price point of over $100,000.  Perhaps they don’t even sound as good as a Yamaha C3, but that’s still over $30,000.  Let’s take that “professional level” Roland RD700SX at $2195 or a Yamaha CP300 at $2195 and see how they stack up.  They sound far better than a used spinet or even a new <st1:place w:st="on">Pearl River</st1:place> vertical at the same price.  In fact, they sound considerably better than a Samick SIG57 5’ 7” grand at over $14,000.  Let’s face it, there are many, many brand new pianos out there, vertical and grand, that cost $20,000 and more that won’t compare in sound or touch to one of the $2K pro electronic keyboards.  (Not to mention that you can move it from venue to venue and it’s still in tune.)<o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> Finally, the most baffling thing to me is, with all the wonderful and very expensive technology out there, the record (OK, Compact Disc) buying public out there demands their sound.  After spending $3,800 EACH for a coincident pair of Neumann U87 Ai microphones, they run them through Rupert Neve equalizers, Manley compressors and every other high-end signal processor available to compress and change the sound to what the public demands – a $2,000 electronic keyboard!<o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> I submit to you that the problem is not with digital instruments or poor recording techniques but with the general public and popular culture.  The masses only know what they know – that is, old spinets in parents’ living rooms and Sunday school classrooms that didn’t sound good or play well when they were purchased in 1955 and haven’t been tuned since.  Popular culture doesn’t demand the subtleties of a Fazioli, they just want to hear music that they like, be it classical or country, and record label executives are happy to give them what they want.  <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> Case in point:  Who decided that young, urban black people like rap?  The people who make large bucks off of young urban black people, that’s who!  People like what they are fed with no regard for what is “good” or “tasteful” or “artistic.”  Or consider this . . . after spending the zillions of bucks to capture that 6-figure piano on those $3,800 microphones with the absolute best and most expensive technology available, we take the impeccably done recording, compress it to MP3 (which literally deletes 80% of the audio data) and listen to it on an iPod through ear buds! <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> You’re welcome to share my point of view if you think anyone is interested or you may just hit Delete.<o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> Later, <o:p></o:p> Danny  <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> -----Original Message----- From: Leslie Bartlett [mailto:l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:13 PM To: Danny Moore Subject: FW: electronics replacing pianos?<o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> <div style='margin-left:36.0pt'> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center> </div> </div> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of reggaepass@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:21 AM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Re: electronics replacing pianos?<o:p></o:p> <div>  ..and the piano seems to be one of the hardest instruments to faithfully reproduce through recording, if not the hardest.  Any thoughts as to why that is?<o:p></o:p> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> <div> Alan Eder<o:p></o:p> </div> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p> <div id="AOLMsgPart_0_23cb784c-b110-42ab-b722-a7fc0803fb09"><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt> What they ultimately proved is that no matter how good the recording and the playback systems,</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>there is always some extra lows and some extra highs and some extra nuance</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>that just plain won't record or playback. I think the same holds true for</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>even the high-end sampled electronic pianos today. They do sound pretty darn</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>good, but they don't really sound real. And I don't think that they will be</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>able to reproduce a real enough sound from an electronic device anytime soon</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>enough for it to effect many of us. </tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt> </tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>-- Geoff Sykes</tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt>-- Assoc. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt> </tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:36.0pt'><tt> </tt><o:p></o:p></pre></div> <div> <div style='margin-left:36.0pt'> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center> </div> </div> <a href="http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol" target="_blank">Check out the new AOL</a>. 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