<html> <body> Dave, It's called the "point of diminishing returns" as a former Journal editor said. There comes a time when no matter how long you spend on it, it "ain't" going to get better! Avery Todd At 11:22 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Hello       One eliment I am highly suspect of is the upper termination points in these economy pianos.        No nice agraffs, or a clean polished steel bar, or clean smooth something, anything on the plate to terminate the string on the tuning pin side. Instead, bass strings wraped up to a 45 degree angle around hitch pins on a flattened mound of plate that is rough as sandpapper and fishined in(perhaps pealing)'insta-gold'. How can a painted sandpaper texture provide clean termination.     It is what it is.     It aint what it ain't       So I am learning to not listen for stuff that is not there. Knowing a pianos limits is not a cop-out, but improves my serice; because I spend my time on what does make a difference.    An example from a recent tutoring session was a demo unision I was tuning. 10sec in I stopped, there was still a tiny movement in the tone. We measured the 3 strings and all strings were within one tenth of a cent of each other. Movement was clear in a couple of the single strings. This was as good as it would get. I could waste a min or 2 trying to clean the unision. It would not happen.    One of the biggest lessons as I mature, is learning how far I can go, what is my resposibility, and what is the pianos. I want it within .1 cent, but knowing when I am there despite what I am hearing. Knowing when I have 6:3 in the bass, or whatever I am doing consistantly in the bass that day despite the other wildly spread harmonics on a cheap piano is challenging.    Stop listening for stuff that is not there to get. Know the difference.    Interesting, how, somehow with a note having 2 false beats, I still found the center of the pitch with .1cent quickly. Not sure how that happens, and how we can hear having reached the end of possiblilities through junk, but there it is. Searching for      Confidence balanced by humility.    Speed balanced with accuracy.       I think I tune these cheaper pianos better fast. I really do. Looking for stuff that is not there hurts my ablilty to focus on what I can do with it.                                       Cheers                                      Dave Renaud                       __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl"> http://mail.yahoo.com</a> </blockquote></body> </html>