<html> <body> Marshall, If you're going to do the Digest, would you PLEASE delete all the "hundreds" of messages included with the one you're replying to! :-) Thanks. Avery At 07:21 AM 2/5/2007, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels of files were found. For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit <a href="http://ses.symantec.com/" eudora="autourl"> http://ses.symantec.com/</a> Received: from rmailcenter08.comcast.net ([204.127.197.118]) <x-tab>        </x-tab>by comcast.net (rwcrmhc15) with SMTP <x-tab>        </x-tab>id <20070205132113m1500q0dr6e>; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:21:13 +0000 Received: from [71.201.224.37] by rmailcenter08.comcast.net; <x-tab>        </x-tab>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:21:13 +0000 From: pianotune05@comcast.net To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Re: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1284, Issue 29 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:21:13 +0000 Message-Id: <020520071321.2386.45C72F48000E3183000009522200750784CACF0A029A9B01020E079F@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct  4 2006) X-Authenticated-Sender: cGlhbm90dW5lMDVAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; <x-tab>        </x-tab> boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2386_1170681673_0" Hi Shawn, That's the problem. I don't kow what the tool is. I just know it was invented by William Faulkner a blind tech. ere in  Chicag who is now past away.  I know it was a tool designed for blind piano tuners.  Hopefully, when I run into the woman again in church next week, she'll have some ideas.  How's everything in Washington, feel free to e-mail privately and let me know. Thanks. Marshall   <dl> <dd>-------------- Original message -------------- <dd>From: pianotech-request@ptg.org <dd>> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. <dd>> <dd>> Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels <dd>> of files were found. <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit <a href="http://ses.symantec.com/" eudora="autourl"> http://ses.symantec.com/</a> </dl>From: pianotech-request@ptg.org To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1284, Issue 29 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:13:15 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/mixed; <x-tab>        </x-tab> boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2386_1170681673_2" Received: from ptg.org ([206.168.112.210]) <x-tab>        </x-tab>by rwcrmxc24.comcast.net (rwcrmxc24) with ESMTP <x-tab>        </x-tab>id <20070205071247r2400hr983e>; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:12:47 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [206.168.112.210] Received: from ptg.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) <x-tab>        </x-tab>by ptg.org (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l157BmCp001468; <x-tab>        </x-tab>Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:11:49 -0700 (MST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0851695702==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: pianotech-request@ptg.org Subject: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1284, Issue 29 To: pianotech@ptg.org Reply-To: pianotech@ptg.org Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 00:11:17 -0700 Message-ID: <mailman.472.1170659477.27129.pianotech@ptg.org> X-BeenThere: pianotech@ptg.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.7 Precedence: list Sender: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org Errors-To: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to <x-tab>        </x-tab> pianotech@ptg.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit <x-tab>        </x-tab> <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to <x-tab>        </x-tab> pianotech-request@ptg.org You can reach the person managing the list at <x-tab>        </x-tab> pianotech-owner@ptg.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..." Today's Topics:    1. Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of (firmin1)    2. Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of (Cy Shuster)    3. Inharmonicity (Paul Milkie)    4. Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of (Hechler Family)    5. Re: I'm seeking a  piano tning tool for the blind (Shawn Brock)    6. RE: pianists at utube (Dean May)    7. Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of (Ron Berry)    8. RE: I'm seeking a piano tning tool for the blind       (Diane Hofstetter)    9. In floor radiant heating (jimialeggio5@comcast.net)   10. Re: pianists at utube (Cy Shuster)   11. Cline piano fall knobs. (R Barber)   12. RE: Inharmonicity (Kerry Cooper)   13. RE: Cline piano fall knobs. (Paul McCloud) From: "firmin1" <firmin1@bellsouth.net> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <640977.30923.qm@web83012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:23:26 -0600 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <00c901c748b3$78ec0cb0$6101a8c0@yourkkxx5rxwd9> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; <x-tab>        </x-tab> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C74881.2E0C7D60" Subject: Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of Message: 1 An old pipe-organ tuners trick is to use a dollar bill as "sandpaper" to polish the beating reed faces in reed pipes. The intaglio printing ink is just raised enough to provide the right abrasion.   Berley From: "Cy Shuster" <cy@shusterpiano.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <640977.30923.qm@web83012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <x-tab>        </x-tab> <00c901c748b3$78ec0cb0$6101a8c0@yourkkxx5rxwd9> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:34:10 -0700 Reply-To: Cy Shuster <cy@shusterpiano.com>, Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <01c201c748d6$7fddc4f0$6549a8c0@BUSTER> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; <x-tab>        </x-tab> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BF_01C7489B.D3126F80" Subject: Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of Message: 2 The strike strip on a matchbook can be handy for a fine sandpaper.   --Cy--   Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Paul Milkie <pgmilkie@yahoo.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pianotech@ptg.org Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:49:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <701729.3337.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Subject: Inharmonicity Message: 3 David, in Australia; Inharmonicity is the discrepancy between the theoretical frequencies of partials and their actual frequencies.With the exception of the first partial(the fundamental), the partials of piano tone are sharper than their theoretical frequencies, which would be exact multiples of the fundamental. This necessitates tuning octaves wider than theoretical in order to obtain an acceptable compromise of these discrepancies. The first partial of A4 is tuned to 0 cents deviation, but all notes above it are tuned increasingly sharper,and all notes below it are tuned increasingly flatter than what they would be theoretically. The result is the piano's stretch. (P.50 of the Verituner 100 user guide).   ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. <a href="http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367" eudora="autourl"> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367</a> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Hechler Family <dahechler@charter.net> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <640977.30923.qm@web83012.mail.mud.yahoo.com><x-tab>        </x-tab> <00c901c748b3$78ec0cb0$6101a8c0@yourkkxx5rxwd9> <x-tab>        </x-tab> <01c201c748d6$7fddc4f0$6549a8c0@BUSTER> In-Reply-To: <01c201c748d6$7fddc4f0$6549a8c0@BUSTER> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 22:14:26 -0600 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <45C6AF22.3080601@charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of Message: 4 Maybe - Vinegar dissolves hide glue -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Associate Member of the Piano Technicians Guild Reed Organ Society Member St. Louis, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@charter.net <a href="http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/" eudora="autourl"> www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com</a> From: "Shawn Brock" <shawn_brock@comcast.net> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <020420072156.595.45C6567800048384000002532209229927CACF0A029A9B01020E079F@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:25:08 -0500 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <005601c748dd$9f10f750$73cdec47@shawn64xrm2jys> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; <x-tab>        </x-tab> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0053_01C748B3.B595FCC0" Subject: Re: I'm seeking a  piano tning tool for the blind Message: 5 What is this tool?  We can probably track it down for ya.  I just need to know its function. <dl> <dd>----- Original Message ----- <dd>From: <a href="mailto:pianotune05@comcast.net">pianotune05@comcast.net</a> <dd>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> <dd>Cc: <a href="mailto:pianotech-request@ptg.org">pianotech-request@ptg.org</a> <dd>Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:56 PM <dd>Subject: I'm seeking a piano tning tool for the blind <dd>Hi Everyone, <dd>I'm still here reading the posts as I get time.  I continue to be active in learning this craft tuning and enjoying every minute of it.  I have a quick question. <dd>  <dd>I met someone who attends my church who's uncle , a blind piano tuner, invented and patened a tool for the blind which was designed to make tuning easier.  He's no longer alive, but his name was William Faulkner from Chicago, not the author from Missippi.  Does anyone know about this tool and where I can find it/purchase it?  Thanks <dd>Marshall <dd>  <dl> <dd>-------------- Original message -------------- <dd>From: pianotech-request@ptg.org <dd>> Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to <dd>> pianotech@ptg.org <dd>> <dd>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit <dd>> <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> <dd>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to <dd>> pianotech-request@ptg.org <dd>> <dd>> You can reach the person managing the list at <dd>> pianotech-owner@ptg.org <dd>> <dd>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific <dd>> than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..." </dl> </dl>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <000601c747d6$d2ae4c00$5e01000a@Moondrain> <x-tab>        </x-tab> <3.0.6.32.20070204125655.00931c20@accesscomm.ca> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20070204125655.00931c20@accesscomm.ca> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:42:40 -0500 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <008001c748e0$11c5d340$6500a8c0@Monica> Content-Type: text/plain; <x-tab>        </x-tab> charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: pianists at utube Message: 6 Don wrote: This is the first time ever I've wished I had more than a dialup connection to the net! <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=49gXA9hALPs" eudora="autourl"> http://youtube.com/watch?v=49gXA9hALPs</a> Robin wrote: THIS  video will probably make go straight out and build your very own cable network just to get the high speed.... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXO4WcBkuo&NR" eudora="autourl"> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXO4WcBkuo&NR</a> 80-something years old and still has fluid technique like that..... has to be seen to be believed.......... Dean wants to know: Okay, all you voicers out there, I would love to know your evaluation of the voicing of these two intruments. The piano Pogorelich plays seems really harsh to me, and the one Horowitz plays has nice color, but seems a little on the bright side. So tell me (and the rest of us voicing novices on the list) how you would voice them differently. Maybe even what hammer you think would work best on these two instruments. Thanks, Dean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Ron Berry" <ron@berrypiano.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <640977.30923.qm@web83012.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <x-tab>        </x-tab> <00c901c748b3$78ec0cb0$6101a8c0@yourkkxx5rxwd9> In-Reply-To: <00c901c748b3$78ec0cb0$6101a8c0@yourkkxx5rxwd9> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: ron@berrypiano.com, Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <45C66E4F.7068.BE6507@ron.berrypiano.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Here's one NOBODY ever heard of Message: 7 The joke among organ builders is to use a dollar bill unless it is an Aeolian Skinner organ, then you need a $20 bill. ron On 4 Feb 2007 at 17:23, firmin1 wrote: > > An old pipe-organ tuners trick is to use a dollar bill as "sandpaper" to polish the beating reed faces > in reed pipes. The intaglio printing ink is just raised enough to provide the right abrasion. > > Berley ---------------------- Ron Berry Piano Service Indianapolis, IN 46220 317-255-8213 ron@berrypiano.com <a href="http://www.berrypiano.com/" eudora="autourl"> http://www.berrypiano.com</a> From: "Diane Hofstetter" <dianepianotuner@msn.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pianotech@ptg.org In-Reply-To: <020420072156.595.45C6567800048384000002532209229927CACF0A029A9B01020E079F@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:47:51 -0800 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <BAY111-F38D9585EF4A184C2FAEB22A3980@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Subject: RE: I'm seeking a piano tning tool for the blind Message: 8 Hi Marshall, The folks at the Piano Hospital, the school for teaching piano tuning to the blind, would probably know.   They specialize in tools and methods to make the work more accessible. Diane Diane Hofstetter ----Original Message Follows---- From: pianotune05@comcast.net Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org, pianotech@ptg.org CC: pianotech-request@ptg.org Subject: I'm seeking a  piano tning tool for the blind Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 21:56:08 +0000 Hi Everyone, I'm still here reading the posts as I get time.  I continue to be active in learning this craft tuning and enjoying every minute of it.  I have a quick question. I met someone who attends my church who's uncle , a blind piano tuner, invented and patened a tool for the blind which was designed to make tuning easier.  He's no longer alive, but his name was William Faulkner from Chicago, not the author from Missippi.  Does anyone know about this tool and where I can find it/purchase it?  Thanks Marshall -------------- Original message -------------- From: pianotech-request@ptg.org > Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to > pianotech@ptg.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pianotech-request@ptg.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pianotech-owner@ptg.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..." ----Original Message Follows---- From: pianotech-request@ptg.org To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1284, Issue 26 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:02:48 +0000 Today's Topics:    1. Re: Inharmonicity (Don)    2. Action modification results. (Jon Page)    3. Re: Grand damper jigs (Farrell)    4. Re: buzzing on piano (Mike Kurta)    5. In floor radiant heating (jimialeggio5@comcast.net)    6. Re: teacher evaluations (Ron Nossaman)    7. Re: Good Old Upright Fix- try this one. (Ron Nossaman)    8. Inharmonicity (Israel Stein)    9. Re: A Good Old Upright Fix..AND SPINET FIX! (KeyKat88@aol.com)   10. Re: A Good Old Upright Fix..AND SPINET FIX! (Don)   11. Re: buzzing on piano (David Andersen)   12. Re: In floor radiant heating (David Andersen)   13. Inharmonicity (RicB)   14. Inharmonicity (RicB)   15. Re: Inharmonicity (Patrick Poulson)   16. pianists at utube (Don) ----Original Message Follows---- From: Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: Inharmonicity Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:55:33 Hi Phillip, The difference is that as a violin is being bowed (in theory) energy is being added which allows the inharmonicity to be near zero. Plucking the string and allowing it to decay allows for *lots* of inharmonicity. At 04:15 PM 2/4/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Robert, > >I wonder why a violin would, less than a piano, have inharmonicity... >It has exactly the same mechanical reasons as a piano to have it, hasn't it >? > >I would understand that it has less inharmonicity because, violin's string >are less stiff than piano strings, but it still should have some... > >Philippe Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat <a href="mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com</a><x-tab>       </x-tab> <a href="http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/" eudora="autourl"> http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/</a> 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7 306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner ----Original Message Follows---- From: Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Action modification results. Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:57:48 -0500 In the past few months, I've had 2 Young Changs and 1 Samick come through the shop. Great improvements have been made on all in regards to action geometry but I didn't document until this last YC. a. original survey b. Reshape hammers/taper/re-arc tails c. move knuckles out 1mm on shank to 18.5mm d. move stack back 3mm e. alter FW to target 38 BW Survey of C4    UW  DW  BW  F   SW   FW  SBR a  32   60    46  14  10.9  32    6.4 b  26   52    39  13    9.9  32    6.3 c  24   44    34  10    9.9  32    5.8 d  22   38    30   8     9.9  32    5.4 e  30   46    38   8     9.9  24    5.4 Description: a.  The piano was difficult to play, one reason the owner sold it,      he wanted a lighter action and decided to go for a digital.      BTW this also is a PianoDisc. b.  Hammers were in the high top range. Reshape, square the tail      to the shank, taper width 10.5mm at top 7.5mm at tail. Remove      staple (.2g) from notes 64 and up to reduce shoulders.      Ending at 3/4 medium range. (at #64, SW increase jump) c.  Knuckle core aligned forwards of jack center pin. Action spread 113.5,      no room to shorten spread because the jack was already forward of      center on the let off button and capstan was on the rear of the cushion.      Height of wippen rail OK. Jacks were burying into the rep stop felt even      with 9.5mm dip and 48mm blow.  I expected a greater difference.      [In retrospect, I might have eliminated this procedure but I didn't like      the angle between the jack and shank at rest.  The knuckles were relatively      loose in the slot so no damage was done in removal and I reused them.      A veneer shim was glued in alongside the core upon reinstallation. Then the      final survey (e) might have appeared something like this: 30,46,38,11,9.9,29,5.9] d.  The capstans were on the rear portion of the cushion felt and behind      the Magic Line. The bass and tenor hammers were at odd angles on the rail      to fit the strings.  Relocated stack back 3mm to align capstan on cushion center      and Magic Line. This also improved the strike point in the treble although I had      to move the keyframe forwards .75mm (predetermined before stack location).      The bass and tenor hammers spaced to the strings with the shanks at      more comfortable angles to the rail and wippens. e.  Plays like a dream with minimal after touch. The FW is still high but without      assist spring wippens there's not much else to do. 10mm dip, 45mm blow.      Fortunately the hammers allowed for needle voicing which brought it right down.      I think that even the PianoDisc operates better. Due to reducing the action ratio, the letoff buttons had to be turned up to nearly maximum. This probably will cause some difficulty in their adjustment once the hammers become worn.  For the next job, I'll either remove the buttons and remove ~3 to 4mm from the bottom or install wippens which have a wider angle between the fly and tender; perhaps one with a screw adjust spring similar to the Tokiwa M&H wippen, if not that wip with appropriate flange (preferred option). I need to pull out the parts kit for comparisons. The Samick came out best of all because I was able to apply a Stanwood TouchDesign since it had the spring assist wippen already (no screw adjust :-( This needed to have the stack moved back, knuckles moved out on the the shanks, wippen rail raised 1.5mm and spread increased to 114mm, hammer weight reduction with shaping/tapering/arcing. NEXT ! Regards, Jon Page ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: Grand damper jigs Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:11:56 -0500 Jig, or piano itself. Eyeballing doesn't cut it here. Terry Farrell   ----- Original Message -----   When I re-felt a set of grand damper heads, I always use jigs when gluing on monochord, bichord, and 2 trichord pieces. The jig aligns the front and back pieces so that they're perfectly in line with each other- -this makes regulation much easier. It's hard enough to do an A-1 damper job normally, but to try to do it when the front and rear dampers don't line up on some damper heads is near impossible. Is the use of jigs common among technicians, or am I the odd ball out there?   Jesse Gitnik - NYC   Since 1980 ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Mike Kurta" <mkurta@adelphia.net> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: buzzing on piano Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:11:56 -0500      You can fashion a diagnostic tool by making a wooden tapered wedge and tapping it lightly in place between the soundboard and beams in various places.  I've found this helps to narrow the area to the source of the buzz, and may even eliminate it if all else fails.    Mike Kurta ----Original Message Follows---- From: jimialeggio5@comcast.net Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: In floor radiant heating Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:04:30 +0000 Cy There are different radiant heat systems, but the key is they heat by the same wave form mechanism. The sun is a radiant heat source. You stand in the sun and feel warmer irrespective of the ambiant temperature. In all these radiant systems, whether it is radiant panels on the walls or cielings or floors, the heat mechanism is wave forms heating the objects first which then heat the air by conduction.  The heat does not progress from the floor and then rise to ceiling except secondarily as the warm objects themselves heat the air by conduction. Thus convection in radiantly heated homes is seriously reduced, which leads to the comfort factor associated with radiant systems. Forced hot air, baseboard heat, etc heat the air which then heats the objects by conduction.  ie much convection, much air movement. Since the radiant systems heat objects (including people's personal objectified bodies) the temp of the building is often comfortable at a lower themostat setting....assuming not too leaky a building. If the radiant heat is installed in a leaky building, the radiant surfaces will need to be warmer than in a less leaky building.  In addition,with greater amount of dry (absolute Humidity) air coursing through the building because of the leaky nature of the building, the RH will drop... this is where the moisture EMC problem with pianos, furniture and people's sinus's occurs...not necessarily the heat source. Jim I ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: l-bartlett@sbcglobal.net, Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: teacher evaluations Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:21:52 -0600 <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">There is a guy who runs around this area of the country "rebuilding" pianos. A one time client of mine paid $3500 for a Chickering 7' which was neither playable nor tuneable when I was asked to tune the thing.  Fortunately I managed to convince them to talk to a good local rebuilder, and they coughed up the additional bucks to have it completely redone.   After all was said and done they had a concert level instrument for vastly less than concert cost.  But it was a bitter pill for them.  The guy who has ripped off a lot of people is named Lovett, and evidently his reputation spreads over more than just the state of Texas.  We've all likely had to pronounce "dead" a number of things people thought were still pianos......... les bartlett</blockquote> Back in the early 80s he used to come through Wichita a couple of times a year and buy up any junk pianos the local technicians had managed to get stuck with, or finally decided they'd never get around to, and haul them back to Texas. We got a kick out of watching him load those big old uprights by himself, and wondered how he could possibly do even 10% of the work these pianos needed and be able to sell them for what he had in them. We decided he must be doing only 5% and refinishing them. Looks like we might have been right. I don't know how far north he ranged, but there must be thousands of expired pianos in Texas that he single handedly rounded up and hauled back. He did a cheap refinish job or two for one of the local techs as well. Was the Chickering refinished? Was the job decent, or at least acceptable? Ron N ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: Good Old Upright Fix- try this one. Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:30:22 -0600 <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">You made me giggle Ron, but I'd be ROFL if it weren't so darn close to the truth!</blockquote> Sad but true. Ron N ----Original Message Follows---- From: Israel Stein <custos3@comcast.net> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Inharmonicity Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 08:28:05 -0800 At 07:49 AM 2/4/2007, Robert Scott wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">RicB said: "Inharmonicity is a distinctive characteristic of pianos." Ric, I competely disagree. All instruments have inharmonicity; just less than the piano. Joe</blockquote>Well, not exactly.  A pipe organ does not have any inharmonicity. Neither does a violin (when it is being bowed).  These instruments produce true harmonics that are exactly multiples of their fundamentals.  And some instruments have more inharmonicity than a piano - like for instance chimes. Robert Scott Ypsilanti, Michigan</blockquote> Sorry, Robert. You are correct about the organ, but incorrect about the violin. Inharmonicity is a property of vibrating strings, caused by stiffness of the material of which the strings are made. Stiffness causes a distortion of the string's vibration at the termination points - there is a part of the string that is more or less straight, before the "waves" can start. The result is that those sections of the vibrating string (1/2, 1/3, 1/4) etc. that give rise to the overtones (or partials above the first) are shortened to a greater proportion of their length by that distortion as one goes up the overtone series. If the distorted section of string is, say, 2 mm - that is a greater proportion of 1/4 of the string than of the whole string. This is what gives rise to inharmonicity - a shorter section produces a higher frequency, and so the higher you go up the overtone series, the sharper is the partial relative to the previous ones. The stiffer the string, the greater the distortion - and therefore, the inharmonicity. Stiffness is affected by three factors: density of the string material, thickness of the string and tension of the string. To have a string with zero inharmonicity, you must have a string with zero stiffness which is impossible, since that would require a string made of something with zero density, of zero thickness under no tension... Since the modern piano uses very thick steel strings (some with copper windings) under a great deal of tension, its inharmonicity is through the roof and requires special treatment in tuning. In violins, on the other hand, the inharmonicity is negligible - thin strings under low tension... Israel Stein ----Original Message Follows---- From: KeyKat88@aol.com Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Re: A Good Old Upright Fix..AND SPINET FIX! Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:51:36 EST Greetings.         It looks as if many pianos were burned in that spot!....ANY SPINETS? Julia Reading PA ----Original Message Follows---- From: Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: A Good Old Upright Fix..AND SPINET FIX! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 11:02:52 Hi Julia, I was under the impression that spinets always burned--the customer that is. At 11:51 AM 2/4/2007 EST, you wrote: >  Greetings.           It looks as if many pianos were burned in that >spot!....ANY SPINETS?   Julia Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat <a href="mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com</a><x-tab>       </x-tab> <a href="http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/" eudora="autourl"> http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/</a> 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7 306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Andersen <david@davidandersenpianos.com> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: buzzing on piano Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:49:43 -0800 Ooohhh, great tip, Mike.  Into the "crucial" file this goes. Thanks. xoxDA On Feb 4, 2007, at 8:11 AM, Mike Kurta wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">   You can fashion a diagnostic tool by making a wooden tapered  wedge and tapping it lightly in place between the soundboard and  beams in various places.  I've found this helps to narrow the area  to the source of the buzz, and may even eliminate it if all else  fails.    Mike Kurta</blockquote> ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Andersen <david@davidandersenpianos.com> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: In floor radiant heating Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:56:41 -0800 Clear. Simple.  Bam.  Thank you, o mystery guest. WHO ARE YOU, JIM I?  Some educated Rastafarian shaman from another dimension? Please tell  us about yourself and your piano story/passion/business. Best, and welcome---- David Andersen Malibu, California <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">If the radiant heat is installed in a leaky building, the radiant  surfaces will need to be warmer than in a less leaky building.  In  addition,with greater amount of dry (absolute Humidity) air coursing through the building because of the leaky nature of the building, the RH will  drop... this is where the moisture EMC problem with pianos, furniture and  people's sinus's occurs...not necessarily the heat source.</blockquote> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Jim I</blockquote> ----Original Message Follows---- From: RicB <ricb@pianostemmer.no> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Inharmonicity Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 18:58:22 +0100 Hi Joe You are of course completely free to disagree. But it might be nice if you made sure at least who you were disagreeing with. The quote you disagree with below is taken from a quote I took off the Netherlands based Bonemens website and represents their views, written as they understand english language usage, to express what they meant.  (which probably did not go along the lines of <<distinctive>> in any <<exclusive>> sense of the word. I believe, if you re-read my post.... the quotation is clearly marked and author appropriately denoted. Cheers RicB    RicB said: "Inharmonicity is a distinctive characteristic of pianos."    Ric,    I competely disagree. All instruments have inharmonicity; just less    than the piano.    Joe    Joe Garrett, R.P.T.    Captain of the Tool Police    Squares R I ----Original Message Follows---- From: RicB <ricb@pianostemmer.no> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Inharmonicity Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 19:03:45 +0100 Sheesh .... dont you guys know what a quotation is and means ? take a gander at the post where I supposedly said as Joe claims:    RicB said: "Inharmonicity is a distinctive characteristic of pianos." <a href="http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/2007-February/201378.html" eudora="autourl"> http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/2007-February/201378.html</a> Now tell me again who said what.... :) Cheers RicB ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Patrick Poulson" <pcpoulson@sbcglobal.net> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: Re: Inharmonicity Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:15:01 -0800 This statement says that inharmonicity is a distinctive characteristic of pianos, not and exclusive one. Big difference is meaning there! Patrick C. Poulson Registered Piano Technician Piano Technicians Guild <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">   RicB said: "Inharmonicity is a distinctive characteristic of pianos."</blockquote> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca> Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Subject: pianists at utube Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:56:55 Hi Folks, This is the first time ever I've wished I had more than a dialup connection to the net! <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=49gXA9hALPs" eudora="autourl"> http://youtube.com/watch?v=49gXA9hALPs</a> Enjoy! Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat <a href="mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com</a><x-tab>       </x-tab> <a href="http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/" eudora="autourl"> http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/</a> 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7 306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner _______________________________________________ Pianotech list info <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> From: jimialeggio5@comcast.net Precedence: list To: pianotech@ptg.org Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:39:11 +0000 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <020520070539.24922.45C6C2FF000D87BF0000615A2207001641CA010709090A040E07030706@comcast.net> Subject: In floor radiant heating Message: 9 Ah yes....  who am I... ahem... I am a pianist/composer who has chosen to make his living as a artisan woodworker... I work in my own woodshop (Boston area) and am basically a master woodworker, really knowing wood, how to work it  and how it behaves...For work I've been reproducing historic windows, curved and so forth for the last 20 years in my 1 man shop at the top end of the this particular niche, slowly working my way over to piano rebuilding/redesign, with a particular interest in small grands(believe it or not).  I am slowly  going through a self-directed apprenticeship in piano rebuilding/redesign... By self-directed I mean the woodworking and engineering skills are already highly developed, but I'm carefully selecting who I want to help fill in pieces of the piano knowledge base that need developing. To that end, I'm in the Boston chapter and also have access to the NH chapter, so I can fit particular questions to rebuilders with particular strengths.  Also had Del Fandrich do a full redesign (board, rib scale, optimised string scale, new treble and bass bridges) of a Chickering 122 which I am completely rebuilding as a learning tool..very helpful. As well, I'm combing the archives for morsels, and reading anything I can get my hands on, and bugging techs as necessary. Along those lines, I asked Del a couple of weeks ago to consider offering a week long redesign workshop, ie, not so much the hands on part of how to build the design, but the engineering/artistic concepts behind the spreadsheets and designs.  If any body else is interested in something like this, if Del knew there was in interest, it  might convince him to seriously consider doing it...maybe.. Anyway, that's the short of it.  Thanks for asking. Jim I Clear. Simple.  Bam.  Thank you, o mystery guest. WHO ARE YOU, JIM I?  Some educated Rastafarian shaman from another dimension? Please tell  us about yourself and your piano story/passion/business. Best, and welcome---- David Andersen Malibu, California Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Cy Shuster" <cy@shusterpiano.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <000601c747d6$d2ae4c00$5e01000a@Moondrain><3.0.6.32.20070204125655.00931c20@accesscomm.ca> <x-tab>        </x-tab> <008001c748e0$11c5d340$6500a8c0@Monica> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:48:15 -0700 Reply-To: Cy Shuster <cy@shusterpiano.com>, Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <024501c748e9$3b6dcd20$6549a8c0@BUSTER> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; <x-tab>        </x-tab> reply-type=original Subject: Re: pianists at utube Message: 10 The Pogorelich piano should have the hammers put back on.  It sounds like the shanks hitting the strings -- positively harspichordean. --Cy-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com> To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:42 PM Subject: RE: pianists at utube <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Dean wants to know: Okay, all you voicers out there, I would love to know your evaluation of the voicing of these two intruments. The piano Pogorelich plays seems really harsh to me, and the one Horowitz plays has nice color, but seems a little on the bright side. So tell me (and the rest of us voicing novices on the list) how you would voice them differently. Maybe even what hammer you think would work best on these two instruments. Thanks, Dean</blockquote> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: R Barber <bassooner42@yahoo.com> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pianotech@ptg.org Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 21:51:19 -0800 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <45C6C5D7.80505@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Subject: Cline piano fall knobs. Message: 11 My customer needs replacement fallboard knobs, a pair, for his model 53 upright, walnut finish.  Schaff, etc. doesn't seem to stock the type necessary for this piano- as there are machine screws sticking out of the fall.  Cline piano's coltonpiano.com email address as listed on the PTG website bounced- no phone number listed either. Any suggestions would be helpful- tomorrow I'll be touring local hardware stores.  Thanks, Richard Barber Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Kerry Cooper" <brispiano@optushome.com.au> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org> References: <701729.3337.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <701729.3337.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:26:09 +1000 Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAM+ZIUh3M3VGuzJBBL4oEpzCgAAAEAAAACNfS924qYBGivBO9GZwzrgBAAAAAA==@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; <x-tab>        </x-tab> charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Inharmonicity Message: 12 Paul, I am sure that David Lawson knows what 'Inharmonicity' means. As he has been in the industry for over 45 years, and has worked for Steinway London. What he was saying is that it is not in the Macquarie Dictionary. Don't jump to conclusions!! The Microsoft Dictionary does not like it either!! Kerry Cooper ARPT Brisbane Piano Centre ph:    +617-3809-0652 Fax:  +617-3809-4699 email: brispiano@optushome.com.au -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Paul Milkie Sent: Monday, 5 February 2007 1:50 PM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Inharmonicity David, in Australia; Inharmonicity is the discrepancy between the theoretical frequencies of partials and their actual frequencies.With the exception of the first partial(the fundamental), the partials of piano tone are sharper than their theoretical frequencies, which would be exact multiples of the fundamental. This necessitates tuning octaves wider than theoretical in order to obtain an acceptable compromise of these discrepancies. The first partial of A4 is tuned to 0 cents deviation, but all notes above it are tuned increasingly sharper,and all notes below it are tuned increasingly flatter than what they would be theoretically. The result is the piano's stretch. (P.50 of the Verituner 100 user guide).   ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. <a href="http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367" eudora="autourl"> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367</a> From: "Paul McCloud" <pmc033@earthlink.net> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:11:26 -0800 Reply-To: pmc033@earthlink.net, Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> Message-ID: <380-2200721571126140@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: RE: Cline piano fall knobs. Message: 13 Richard: Some of the knobs from Schaff have machine threads in them, and are supplied with attaching threaded screws that are machine threaded (for the knob), and the other end wood threaded (for the wooden fallboard).  When you order, the threaded screws are separate from the knobs.  Perhaps the knobs would actually screw right onto the existing machine screws.  Alternatively, you could remove the machine screws and plug the holes, then redrill for the wood screw type knobs. FWIW. Paul McCloud San Diego > [Original Message] > From: R Barber <bassooner42@yahoo.com> > To: <pianotech@ptg.org> > Date: 02/04/2007 10:53:37 PM > Subject: Cline piano fall knobs. > > My customer needs replacement fallboard knobs, a pair, for his model 53 > upright, walnut finish.  Schaff, etc. doesn't seem to stock the type > necessary for this piano- as there are machine screws sticking out of > the fall.  > > Cline piano's coltonpiano.com email address as listed on the PTG website > bounced- no phone number listed either. >  > Any suggestions would be helpful- tomorrow I'll be touring local > hardware stores. > >   Thanks, > Richard Barber _______________________________________________ Pianotech list info <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a></blockquote></body> </html>