<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Fair enough, Rick - I should have read David's post more carefully. Still, it seems that often the onus of proof seems to be on people who use ETD's. As one who tuned for 18 years strictly aurally, and now 9 years using Reyburn Cybertuner along with my ears (hybrid tuning), that's just hard for me to relate to. I suppose I've encountered too many tuners who've never even tried ETD's, yet feel they can pronounce blanket negative judgements on the use of them. That's where I'm coming from...<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Respectfully,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Allen<BR><DIV><DIV>On 15 Feb 2007, at 22:32, RicB wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Allen and others who jumped all over Davids post.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I respectfully would ask that you look closer at what David actually said.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>No where did he imply anything close to the idea that an artistic tuning effort was not possible without an ears only approach. In fact... what he did say was two things<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>... the first being... and I quote</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>"Now:<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I've heard beautiful, soaring tunings by strictly aural</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>tuners, and by tuners who were using an ETD as a helpful tool."</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">That seems pretty clear to me... rather the exact opposite of what he has been accused of twice now. He THEN goes ON to say... and I once again quote</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>"The tunings I've heard that were strictly by looking at the wheel</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>or<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>the dial or whatever---to me---suck. Average. Brittle-sounding."</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Which also is pretty clear, and fairly (as in fair play) qualified by the condition "the ones he's heard".<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I have to admit I also have yet to hear what I would call a very fine tuning artistic or otherwise done by someone, anyone who has no use of their ears whatsoever.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I dont think I would use the termage "they suck"... but hey thats more a matter of semantics then anything else.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Perhaps a bit over emphasized.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">He finishes off with a perfectly fair observation which is in my book just as ridiculous to attempt to deny as it is to try and say there are ear tuners out there that dont give a hoot about their job either.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>One more direct quote</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>"I think a lot of people use ETDs because they're not confident in<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>their ears' ability to get the job done.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>This is just speculation,<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>but I think there's some truth there."</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">There is no doubt about it some truth in this statement.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>By no means does that say anything in particular about anyone in particular... but just so.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Strikes me that both ETD enthusiasts and ear tuning enthusiasts need to be able to admit the inherent limitations, weaknesses,<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>and potential pitfalls each approach have inherent in them.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Heck guys.... its just a discussion.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>David Andersens dedication to quality and the pursuit of self betterment in our trade is beyond question.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Cheers</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">RicB</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>David,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I respectfully disagree with the whole tenor of your posting. I <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>believe this idea that tuning can only be done artistically by <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>someone using ears alone, without utilizing an ETD as any part of the <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>process, is unfortunate and limiting. To me it borders on a<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>sort of <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>romanticizing mystification. ETD's are a tool, like anything else; <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>they can be a great addition to and extension of our senses.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I believe what you say about your passion for the artistic nature of <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>the tuning process and respect that. But I hope you won't try to <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>define what that artistry must involve for myself or others.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Sincerely,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Allen Wright, RPT</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>London, UK</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> <BR></DIV><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Allen Wright</DIV><DIV>6 Clay Court, 219 Long Lane</DIV><DIV>London SE1 4PB</DIV><DIV>United Kingdom</DIV><DIV>020 7378 8265 </DIV><DIV>0780-688-1325 (mobile)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>