<html> <body> ????????????????? Nothing there. At 06:59 AM 3/4/2007, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""> ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg   <dl> <dd>From: pianotech-request@ptg.org <dd>Reply-To: pianotech@ptg.org <dd>To: pianotech@ptg.org <dd>Subject: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1285, Issue 17 <dd>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 19:47:47 -0700 <dd>>Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to <dd>> pianotech@ptg.org <dd>> <dd>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit <dd>> <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> <dd>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to <dd>> pianotech-request@ptg.org <dd>> <dd>>You can reach the person managing the list at <dd>> pianotech-owner@ptg.org <dd>> <dd>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific <dd>>than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..." <dd>>Today's Topics: <dd>> <dd>> 1. Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: <dd>> Type O (Sid Blum) <dd>> 2. Re: What would Steinway do (hubert liverman) <dd>> 3. RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: <dd>> Type O (Marcel Carey) <dd>> 4. RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: <dd>> Type O (Sid Blum) <dd>> 5. Re: What would Steinway do (David Andersen) <dd>> 6. RE : RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, <dd>> was: Type O (Marcel Carey) <dd>> 7. Re: Baldwin Concert Grand (Mike Kurta) <dd>> 8. Weinbach Studio (Mark's Piano Service) <dd>> 9. Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: <dd>> Type O (Ron Nossaman) <dd>> 10. Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: <dd>> Type O (PAULREVENKOJONES) <dd>> 11. Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type <dd>> O (RicB) <dd>From: Sid Blum <piano@sover.net> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:26:56 -0500 <dd>>> <dd>>>........"The next major factor behind the bridge cap/pin changes <dd>>>is, I think, dimensional changes in the pinblock.".......... <dd>>>Ron N <dd>> <dd>>Okay I'll bite- <dd>> <dd>>Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? <dd>> <dd>>Sid <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>From: "hubert liverman" <hubertliverman@bellsouth.net> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Re: What would Steinway do <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:56:03 -0600 <dd>  <dl> <dd>In fact, you and Dale should analyze the house,last shipment,and learn from the Old Piano Elves. <dd>Training the second generation of Pixies could be problematic. This opens us to a whole new field of Technology that may somewhat agree with some customer conceptions. <dd>  <dd>With respect and humor to everyone, <dd>  <dd>Hubert Liverman <dd>Tuner/ tech <dd>  <dd> In fact, Dale and I split the last shipment of fairy dust we got from the Old Piano Elves that live down in that strange house near that old factory.....ooooooohhhhhh..... <dd>DA <dd>On Mar 2, 2007, at 8:54 PM, <a href="mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com">Erwinspiano@aol.com</a> wrote: <dl> <dd>   NAh Nah Nah.  It's the magic wood that makes it authentic <dd>  Dale <dl> <dd>I love it!  That is something I can't get my brain around.  "Will it <dd>> still be a Steinway?"  I guess I'm not too bright but I don't get the <dd>> concept. <dd>> <dd>> David M. Porritt </dl> </dl> </dl> <dd>From: Marcel Carey <mcpiano@videotron.ca> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O <dd>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:07:49 -0500 <dd>>It all depends if you're talking about an upright or a grand... :-) <dd>> <dd>>Marcel Carey <dd>> <dd>> > -----Message d'origine----- <dd>> > De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org <dd>> > [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] De la part de Sid Blum <dd>> > Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 16:27 <dd>> > <dd>> > Okay I'll bite- <dd>> > <dd>> > Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? <dd>> > <dd>> > Sid <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > -- <dd>> > Sid Blum <dd>> > sid@sover.net <dd>> > <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>From: Sid Blum <piano@sover.net> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:13:08 -0500 <dd>> <dd>>Thought of that as soon as a sent it off. I was picturing a grand. <dd>>Thanks for keeping me on my feet. <dd>> <dd>>Sid <dd>> <dd>>>It all depends if you're talking about an upright or a grand... :-) <dd>>> <dd>>>Marcel Carey <dd>>> <dd>>>> -----Message d'origine----- <dd>>>> De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org <dd>>>> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] De la part de Sid Blum <dd>>>> Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 16:27 <dd>>>> <dd>>>> Okay I'll bite- <dd>>>> <dd>>>> Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? <dd>>>> <dd>>>> Sid <dd>>>> <dd>>>> <dd>>>> <dd>>>> <dd>>>> <dd>>>> -- <dd>>>> Sid Blum <dd>>>> sid@sover.net <dd>>>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>From: David Andersen <david@davidandersenpianos.com> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Re: What would Steinway do <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:24:01 -0800 <dd>On Mar 3, 2007, at 1:56 PM, hubert liverman wrote: <dl> <dl> <dd>In fact, you and Dale should analyze the house,last shipment,and learn from the Old Piano Elves. </dl> </dl> <dd>We have the house completely controlled by our agents; we've scoured every surface for clues as to the make-up of the Fairy Dust; and we've got the Elves in a sub-basement of the Atelier, and on a "persuasion" program that we've put together...I'll keep you all posted when they.....start to cooperate. <dl> <dl> <dd>Training the second generation of Pixies could be problematic. </dl> </dl> <dd>Dude.  Please.  These are not Pixies. Pixies are buffoons; they hate pianos; they love clarinets and banjos...the hell with Pixies.  these are Elves---pee--ANNO Elves, sir. <dl> <dl> <dd>This opens us to a whole new field of Technology that may somewhat agree with some customer conceptions. </dl> </dl> <dd>Absolutely.  My personal goal is to replace myself as a field technician with one of the Elves by the end of 2008; people seem to like them a bit better than bitter, cynical old geezer pianotechs, for some reason. That frickin' Elf gets a big tip every time I send him in my place...... <dl> <dl> <dd>  <dd>With respect and humor to everyone, <dd>  <dd>Hubert Liverman <dd>Tuner/ tech </dl> </dl> <dd>Right back at ya, Hubert..... <dd>David Andersen <dd>Elf Slavemaster <dl> <dl> <dd>  <dd> In fact, Dale and I split the last shipment of fairy dust we got from the Old Piano Elves that live down in that strange house near that old factory.....ooooooohhhhhh..... <dd>DA <dd>On Mar 2, 2007, at 8:54 PM, <a href="mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com">Erwinspiano@aol.com</a> wrote: <dl> <dd>   NAh Nah Nah.  It's the magic wood that makes it authentic <dd>  Dale <dl> <dd>I love it!  That is something I can't get my brain around.  "Will it <dd>> still be a Steinway?"  I guess I'm not too bright but I don't get the <dd>> concept. <dd>> <dd>> David M. Porritt </dl> </dl> </dl> </dl> <dd>From: Marcel Carey <mcpiano@videotron.ca> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: RE : RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop,was: Type O <dd>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:43:18 -0500 <dd>>Sorry Sid, the door was just too wide open for it. <dd>> <dd>> >From my experience, the block would move forward and backward. Maybe <dd>>others would think differently. <dd>> <dd>>Marcel <dd>> <dd>> > -----Message d'origine----- <dd>> > De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org <dd>> > [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] De la part de Sid Blum <dd>> > Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 17:13 <dd>> > À : Pianotech List <dd>> > Objet : RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch <dd>> > drop, was: Type O <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > Thought of that as soon as a sent it off. I was <dd>> > picturing a grand. Thanks for keeping me on my <dd>> > feet. <dd>> > <dd>> > Sid <dd>> > <dd>> > >It all depends if you're talking about an upright or a grand... :-) <dd>> > > <dd>> > >Marcel Carey <dd>> > > <dd>> > >> -----Message d'origine----- <dd>> > >> De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org <dd>> > [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" eudora="autourl"> mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <dd>> > >> De la part de Sid Blum <dd>> > Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 16:27 <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> Okay I'll bite- <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> Sid <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> <dd>> > >> -- <dd>> > >> Sid Blum <dd>> > >> sid@sover.net <dd>> > >> <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> > -- <dd>> > Sid Blum <dd>> > sid@sover.net <dd>> > <dd>> > <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>From: "Mike Kurta" <mkurta@adelphia.net> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Re: Baldwin Concert Grand <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:37:13 -0500 <dd>    Gerald: <dd>    From your description of the hammer wear, it doesn't seem as though they would need replacing at this point.  Reshaping, yes.  The strings breaking at the agraffe would suggest "work hardening."  This condition may be created by hard playing (and a lot of it) which makes the strings move up and down, back and forth which causes the wire to get brittle and break at the termination point closest to the hammer--the agraffe.  Using too much sustain pedal will also make the problem worse again, excess string movement.  I suggest replacing strings as needed and study the habits of the primary player. <dd>    Mike Kurta <dd>    Syracuse chapter <dd>From: "Mark's Piano Service" <mps@usol.com> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Weinbach Studio <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:37:56 -0500 <dd>I tuned a Weinbach Studio the other day and noticed how the pins seemed to be somewhat loose to me. I had just done a recently rebuilt Steinway "L" and I'm not sure if the Steinway had such tight pins that it made the Weinbach feel loose, or if the Weinbach is known for loose pins. The Weinbach is seven years old. and has a DC system installed. I'm not sure of the exact RH that day. So I'm not sure if that was a significant factor. <dd>  <dd>  <dd>Mark's Piano Service <dd>  <dd>From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O <dd>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:53:48 -0600 <dd>> <dd>>>Okay I'll bite- <dd>>> <dd>>>Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? <dd>>> <dd>>>Sid <dd>> <dd>>Forward and backward, directly in line with the string tension. A <dd>>couple of thousandths of an inch position change can make a <dd>>significant difference in pitch. <dd>> <dd>>Ron N <dd>> <dd>From: PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>Subject: Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O <dd>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:35:49 -0600 <dd>Ron: <dd>  <dd>Certainly the dimensional changes you suggest would create a pitch difference, but what about the not so inconsequential friction systems of the front scale: bearing cloth, counterbearing bar, agraffe or capo, etc. Would the "couple of thousandths" translate into real pitch change in the speaking length? Would it account for the predominantly middle range changes we experience? Would it explain bearing measurement shifts after major pitch change? I'd love to hear Jim Ellis chime in on this. <dd>  <dd>Paul <dd>  <dd>"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie) <dd>  <dd>  <dd>In a message dated 03/03/07 19:58:09 Central Standard Time, rnossaman@cox.net writes: <dl> <dd>> Okay I'll bite- <dd>> <dd>> Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? <dd>> <dd>> Sid <dd>Forward and backward, directly in line with the string <dd>tension. A couple of thousandths of an inch position change <dd>can make a significant difference in pitch. <dd>Ron N </dl> <dd>  <dd>From: RicB <ricb@pianostemmer.no> <dd>Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org> <dd>To: pianotech@ptg.org <dd>Subject: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O <dd>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 03:37:03 +0100 <dd>>Hi folks <dd>> <dd>>I have a feeling that whats not being taken into account for is <dd>>exactly what one can expect from a given vertical deflection change <dd>>of the string at the bridge. It matters not whether this vertical <dd>>deflection comes from the bridge swelling, or from a soundboard <dd>>rising, or from any combination of these. <dd>> <dd>>The point is that given usual design string deflection numbers, <dd>>usual string lengths and diameters, significant changes in frequency <dd>>due to changes in vertical displacement carry too high a price in <dd>>terms of change in downbearing to be realistic. At least thats what <dd>>it looks like to me. <dd>> <dd>>Anyone interested is calculating change in frequency, downbearing, <dd>>tensions etc for changes in vertical displacement can do so with <dd>>reasonable accuracy using the attached formulas. I worked out all <dd>>this as a result of a correspondance with Alex Galembo a year or so <dd>>back. I needed a way of taking into consideration the elongation of <dd>>the string due to changes in string deflection only before I could <dd>>come in ballpark figures for changes in the other relevant <dd>>parameters to work out this sheet the way I wanted to. I've had it <dd>>looked at by a few folks who've yet to punch any holes in the logic <dd>>or calculations, tho I would be glad to learn of any error made here <dd>>in either. <dd>> <dd>>In anycase... if what I have here is correct or even reasonably <dd>>so... then vertical string deflection as a significant cause of <dd>>pitch change seems to carry to large a price in terms of change in <dd>>downbearing force. As the example shows, a change from 1 mm <dd>>deflection to 2 mm causes downbearing for this single string unison <dd>>to rise to 8 pounds. Figure that out over the entire piano.... If <dd>>you on the other hand calculate withing reasonable downbearing force <dd>>parameters... you end up with quite small changes in pitch. <dd>>Certainly much smaller then can account for the large pitch changes <dd>>we see. <dd>> <dd>>Cheers <dd>>RicB <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>> <dd>  <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image002.gif" width=547 height=137 alt="[]"> <dd>  <dd>     <dd>     <dd>     <dd>Symbols    <dd>     <dd>a = Speaking Length    <dd>b = Back Length    <dd>d = Bridge Deflection    <dd>p = tuning pin length    <dd>T = Tension    <dd>L = String Length    <dd>     <dd>Initial Conditions    <dd>Zero deflection;  d0 = 0    <dd>Tension is T0      <dd>L0 = a0 + b0 Wire Ø mm WCS mm^2   E   McFerrin E  <dd>  0,90 0,64   45000,00   31023,63  <dd>Formulas:  <dd>  T0   lbs   a0   mm b0   mm L0  mm p0  <dd>E is taken as 45000 lbs / mm^2 150,00   150,00000 50,00 400,00 200,00 Hz0  <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image015.gif" width=94 height=34 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image016.gif" width=93 height=34 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image017.gif" width=259 height=33 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image018.gif" width=300 height=34 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image019.gif" width=300 height=55 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image020.gif" width=300 height=40 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image021.gif" width=97 height=50 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image022.gif" width=617 height=58 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image023.gif" width=298 height=59 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image024.gif" width=294 height=21 alt="[]"> <dd> <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image025.gif" width=100 height=47 alt="[]">  <img src="http://by112fd.bay112.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/dasp/EN/Stringdeflection_files/image026.gif" width=213 height=48 alt="[]"> <dd>  <dd>T0   kgs   1218,9515  <dd>68,04  <dd>     <dd>d1  mm   a1  mm b1  mm L1  mm DL1 Hz1   T1 lbs Sin A1 Sin B1 <dd>1,00   150,003333 50,01 400,01 0,01333 1222,7952   150,95 0,007 0,020 <dd>        DHz1 DCents1 DT1 Lbs aa1 ab1 <dd>        3,84 5,450 0,95 0,38 1,15 <dd>          T2  lbs  <dd>d2  mm   a2  mm b2  mm L2  mm DL2 Hz2 DCents2 153,82 Sin A2 Sin B2 <dd>2,00   150,013333 50,04 400,05 0,05332 1234,25 21,591 DT2 lbs 0,013 0,040 <dd>      DHz2   3,82 aa2 ab2 <dd>  15,30   0,76 2,29 <dd>         <dd>           <dd>              <dd>T1 kgs   T2  kgs   Downwards force on the Bridge T1 lbs  <dd>68,47   69,77   4,02  <dd>  Downwards force on the Bridge T2 lbs  <dd>  8,20  <dd>     <dd>     <dd>     <dd>   <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>  <dd>   <dd>>_______________________________________________ <dd>>Pianotech list info <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl"> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </dl> <hr> <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2746??PS=47575">Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms</a> </blockquote></body> </html>