<br><br> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/5/07, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:A440A@aol.com" target="_blank">A440A@aol.com</a></b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:A440A@aol.com" target="_blank"> A440A@aol.com</a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Holly writes:<br><br><<  I thought the point of tuning a temperament via 4ths and 5ths was to<br><br> make it easier to get to the contiguous M3s as a finished product - ? >><br><br>Greetings,<br>   I don't know if it is easier to "get" the thirds as a finished product,<br>but we were taught to use 4ths and fifths with an ever-increasing number of <br>checks as we went through the temperament.  These included comparing thirds and<br>sixths, adjacent thirds, 7-8-9-10 progression of 3rd-6th-6th-3rd. Cumulative<br>error was stopped very quickly by not going beyond any check that didn't work <br>out.<br>   The bias of either approach, ie, contiguous thirds vs. 4ths and fifths,<br>favors either making a perfectly straight progression of thirds or totally<br>consistant fifths.  On small pianos, it is often not possible to have both, and <br>the tuner must decide which is more important.  In ET, the thirds are so out of<br>tune to begin with, I don't remember a customer ever questioning them, but I<br>have, on occasion, had a small scale that had a beating fifth when the thirds <br>were lined up, and a customer picked it up.  I remember retuning the fifth,<br>letting the third beat 'out of order' and they were satisfied.<br>      I believe the perfect progression of thirds is something that we <br>tuners pay far more attention to than the majority of pianists.<br>Regards,<br><br><br><br>Ed Foote RPT<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html" target="_blank"> http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html</a><br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html" target="_blank">www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html </a><br><BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> Get a sneak peek of<br>the all-new AOL at <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour" target="_blank"> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour</a></HTML><br></blockquote></div> <div><br> </div> <div> </div> <div>Hi Holly, </div> <div> </div> <div>I learned like you and Rex to tune with a C fork F3 toF4 using 4ths and 5ths after about 12 years and a few complaints from     </div> <div>professionals I did "concert" tunings for, I went to one of the senior men in the area, sorry Holly all men in my area at the time, to see if he could help. He converted me to an A fork with a new tuning method, his concert tuning method, as follows. </div> <div>A3 to the fork checking the beat rate against an untuned F2(it doesn't matter if it's tuned, you are simply listening for the same beat rate from the 2 piano notes as the F2 to the fork). Tune F3 to A3, D4 to A3, A#3 to F3, F#3 to A#3, B3 to F#3, E4 to B3, G3 to B3, C4 to G3, G#3 to C4, C#4 to G#3, D#4 to A#3, F4 to C4. Checks can be made at any time with Maj. 6ths, 5ths. When completed the progression of beats can be checked with Maj 3rds and again more carefully with Minor 3rds.  </div> <div> </div> <div>As you can see this method uses 3rds and 4ths to tune with 5ths and 6ths for checks and it is adjustable to fit the various scalings on some of the PSO's I won't name here that won't accept this tuning in it's true form. Just as Ed said in his post, you sometimes have to give up the smooth progression of 3rds or allow a 5th to beat slightly, trim the beat on that 4th a little slower than normal or leave it a little fast, remember most of the time the only one that can hear these things is you. I have found if I can tune the piano to my satisfaction(knowing I left a little something just that little bit off, for the sake of making the piano as a whole sound OK)my customer is satisfied. If you bring the problem to their attention, a tuning problem they would probably never have noticed, you are doing yourself a disservice. Most production pianos have tuning flaws, our job is to fix the glaring ones,  those that can be fixed and smooth over the rest making them not as noticable. </div> <div> </div> <div>Having used this method for over 25 years now I find I can set an aural temperament with it in about 10 to 15 minutes. I am going over the tuning exam source book now and will be practice tuning a piano at our next meeting in about 2 weeks. Our chapter doesn't have a test examiner certified for the new testing criteria but a few that qualified under the old criteria who should be able to render an opinion to give me an idea if I need to modify what I do or if I can do well with what I've been doing for the last 25+ years of my 38 years in this business.    </div> <div>  <br clear="all">Mike<br>-- <br> <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Never become so much of an expert that you stop gaining expertise. View life as a continuous learning experience. </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align="right"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- <i><a href="http://www.quoteopia.com/famous.php?quotesby=deniswaitley">Denis Waitley</a> </i></span></p><br><br>Michael Magness <br>Magness Piano Service<br>608-786-4404<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.ifixpianos.com/" target="_blank">www.IFixPianos.com</a><br>email <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:mike@ifixpianos.com" target="_blank">mike@ifixpianos.com</a> </div>