Dave,<br><br>As a noob who would like to eventually be proficient enough to pick up a fair-condition piano and make it a really-nice-condition piano for purposes of selling it, I'm curious why you say Never NEVER. Is it the amount of work involved getting them saleable? or the nuisance of selling? or other?
<br><br>Thanks!<br><br>Paul Bruesch<br>Stillwater, MN<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/22/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Porritt, David</b> <<a href="mailto:dporritt@mail.smu.edu">dporritt@mail.smu.edu</a>> wrote:
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What Conrad said!</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Really there are just parts of
the "piano business" that I have no interest in, and I have
avoided. I don't refinish, I don't move pianos, I don't
sell them. In my 34 years of doing this I have bought, rebuilt and sold 2
pianos – a Baldwin E and a Steinway B. Both of them I was able to
get at a price I couldn't pass up. I had the Baldwin so long that
when I finally sold it I said never again. Unfortunately never was only about
25 years when I came across the B. When that sold I did say Never NEVER and
I think I'll be able to stick with that now. That side of this work
just doesn't interest me. </span></p><span class="q">
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">dp</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">David M. Porritt, RPT</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://dporritt@smu.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><span style="color: blue;">dporritt@smu.edu</span></a></span>
</p>
</div>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
</span><div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dean
May<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 22, 2007 9:00 AM<div><span class="e" id="q_115c85e55c4caaeb_3"><br>
<b>To:</b> 'Pianotech List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Appraising follow up</span></div></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><span class="e" id="q_115c85e55c4caaeb_5">
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">For someone who has been in the business a long time I'm
struggling with your comment that appraising is waaay beyond your experience.
You don't really have to be in the business of selling, just be observant.
Pay attention to what pianos are selling for in the store. When you get a
customer that just bought a piano ask them how much they gave for it. Take note
of the piano's style and condition. After awhile you get a feel for 2
levels of fair market values: store selling prices and private transaction
selling prices. And there is one more price you need to worry about:
replacement value. When writing an appraisal for sale you worry about the first
two. When writing one for insurance you worry about the latter. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">And I'd have to say if you've been in the business for
awhile and haven't sold any pianos, you may be missing out on a good
additional income stream. At least once or twice a year I'll come across
a piano that has to be moved out right away. You can often pick up a decent
console or spinet in the $100-$300 range, sometimes free. Clean it up, give it
a pitch raise, slap a one year warranty on it, offer free delivery, and
you've got a great $950 - $1500 starter piano for someone. All
that's required is the next time someone asks, "Do you buy/sell
pianos?" you say, "Sure, sometimes, what do you have/need?"</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"> </span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 22pt; color: navy;">Dean</span></b><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color: navy;">Dean May
cell 812.239.3359 </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color: navy;">PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color: navy;">Terre Haute IN 47802</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Porritt,
David<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 22, 2007 7:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pianotech List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Appraising follow up</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I've been fascinated with
this thread on appraising a piano. I've been in this business for a
long time, have the RPT certificate etc. I do not feel qualified to
appraise a piano since I have stayed as far away from piano sales as I
could. I can look at a piano and tell its good points and bad points and
what it needs to be better. However, how much money it would bring on the
open market is waaaaay beyond my expertise. When someone asks me how much
they should get for their piano I defer to someone who works in a store where
used pianos are bought and sold daily.</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">dp</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">David M. Porritt, RPT</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://dporritt@smu.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dporritt@smu.edu</a></span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:paulrevenkojones@aol.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">paulrevenkojones@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Appraising follow up</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p>Paul,<br>
<br>
<span>I would have thought that this
is a technical topic and well worth discussing on the technical forum.
Appraising is a technical activity, not a political one. If we had more
discussion on appraisal, maybe we turn out better appaisers. <br>
<br>
Paul</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: paul bruesch <<a href="mailto:paul@bruesch.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">paul@bruesch.net</a>><br>
To: Pianotech List <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br>
Sent: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:35 pm<br>
Subject: Re: Appraising follow up</p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Can this PTG politics thread
please migrate to the proper forum? Please? PTG-L. </p>
<div>
<p><span>On 10/21/07, <b><a href="mailto:paulrevenkojones@aol.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">paulrevenkojones@aol.com </a></b><<a href="mailto:paulrevenkojones@aol.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
paulrevenkojones@aol.com</a>> wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 2pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p>But having that qualification will add to the
credibility. </p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><span>Willem:<br>
<br>
That's not only the danger but the reality: too many technicians dependent on
the "credibility" of the designation offering wholly uninformed and
unformed opinions about the value of pianos. Every time a technician suggests,
estimates, guesses, opines, or offers an appraisal of value, he/she has altered
the values of all other pianos in the market place, sometimes subtly, sometimes
not. Then also, the uneducated credibility of the piano-owning public who will
be led to expect that the RPT designation by itself "should" signify
capability, experience, and assurance. then also, the credibility of the legal
system which will come to depend on the RPT designation while the above flaws
in the ointment continue to be perpetuated. If after some rather extended
experience in the field, and with an ear to the market, someone also has RPT
status, then I guess that means something; but for the life of me I don't know
what it is. As we kn! ow, many new RPT's are dangerous to the field piano
technology since many of them mistakenly believe that the designation is the
end rather than the beginning. <br>
<br>
While I certainly applaud those who seek and attain RPT status, its
significance is primarily internal, that we, by social contract in our
association, wish to provably raise the level of our techinical expertise by
taking examinations which, as we all know, at 80% are marginal at best. It is
perfectly conceivable and, indeed, has been done, to create an RPT within as
little as 15 months from a point of total ignorance about piano technology. The
RPT designation does not create an appraiser. Or lend credibility to the
appraisal, except to the credulous. And we as members of the Piano Technicians
Guild need to be extraordinarily circumspect in making the designation carry
too much peripheral force or cachet. It will redound poorly on us if we do. <br>
<br>
Paul</span></p>
</div>
<p><span><br>
<br>
</span><span>-----Original Message-----</span><br>
<span>From: Willem Blees <<a href="mailto:wimblees@aol.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wimblees@aol.com</a>></span><br>
<span>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech@ptg.org</a></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span>Sent: Sun, 21 Oct
2007 8:51 pm</span><br>
<span>Subject: Re: Appraising follow up</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p>I'm not suggesting that just being an RPT is enough to be a
qualified appraiser. But having that qualification will add to the
credibility. By the same token, an RPT isn't necessarily qualified
to be a concert tuner, but it certainly goes a long way. Which is one of
the reasons many universities want an RPT to be the tech. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT<br>
Piano Tuner/Technician<br>
Honolulu, HI<br>
Author of <br>
The Business of Piano Tuning<br>
available from Potter Press<br>
<a href="http://www.pianotuning.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.pianotuning.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:paulrevenkojones@aol.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">paulrevenkojones@aol.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
Sent: Sun, Oct 21 1:15 AM<br>
Subject: Re: Appraising follow up</p>
<div>
<div>
<p>Willem:<br>
<span><br>
With all due respect, the designation of RPT is not sufficient to be an
appraiser except for, perhaps, some technical purpose regarding qualifications
in the eyes of the legal system which may be all you're saying, but if so, then
it in insufficient and non-germane to the issue. There are many, many young
RPTs, whom I just love to death for becoming so, who are not qualified to
appraise because they simply haven't had the experience in the
"market-place", nor of the intricacies of the law and tax
consequences, properly to bring to bear the results of that experience. Julia herself
admits as much, that she's been doing technical work for several years, but
does not claim to be an appraiser. To hold out the carrot to aspiring RPT's
that they will, simply by becoming RPT's, have the qualification to appraise is
nonsense. There are many non-RPT's out there who have years and years of
experience whom I would call on in an instant before I would call someone to do
an appraisal sim! ! ply because they have the designation after their name and
the other doesn't. So, no, not enough said.<br>
<br>
Paul</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Willem Blees <<a href="mailto:wimblees@aol.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wimblees@aol.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:23 pm<br>
Subject: Appraising follow up</p>
<div>
<div>
<p>I just got my October Journal, and read the appraising
article. A couple of weeks ago there was some talk about this, but since
the series of questions appeared on Pianotech before I joined, I didn't get a
chance to add my 2 cents worth. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>The only thing I wanted to add, which I mentioned in my
Appraisal class at the convention, has to do with the qualifications of a piano
appraiser. The number one qualification, in opinion, would be an RPT member of
the PTG. There is no other classification in any other profession that comes
close to knowing more about the condition of a piano than an RPT. The IRS, much
less a court of law, has no other standard to measure our ability against.
I'm not saying there aren't other people who can do an appraisal, but
an RPT is the only one with credentials. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>'noug said. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT<br>
Piano Tuner/Technician<br>
Honolulu, HI<br>
Author of <br>
The Business of Piano Tuning<br>
available from Potter Press<br>
<a href="http://www.pianotuning.com/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.pianotuning.com</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 7.5pt;">
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
</div>
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!</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 7.5pt;"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 7.5pt;">
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin-top: 7.5pt;">Email and AIM finally together.
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!</p>
</div>
</span></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br>