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<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>David
--</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
believe I used the term inharmonicity incorrectly. My apologies. Inharmonicity
is caused by the fact that the string doesn't terminate at an exact or perfect
point like, say, a hinge, but rather through a bend that does
not uniformly reflect the multiple waveforms of the different partials
created within a vibrating string at a unique point. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
don't think the primary purpose of a bridge pin is to prevent the string
from sliding around on top of the bridge. Like a guitar or other stringed
instrument that possibility is minimal. But just the same, because of the high
tension and subsequent high partial content of a piano string the tolerance of
any string movement across the bridge would be much lower and a bridge pin is
very helpful in that regard.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>What
I'm referring to is the need to make sure that the edge of the notch on the
bridge exactly matches the side of the bridge pin so that the string termination
at the bridge is the same in both the X and Y axis. If it were not the
same then the string is literally a different length on one axis than it is in
the other. Since a string moves in all directions when vibrating, not just up
and down, if that termination is not exact then the partials created in one axis
are different than in the other, creating beats. This is one reason why we make
sure strings are seated correctly against the bridge itself, and hope that the
bridge notching and the pin placement has been done accurately. It's another
reason, in addition to stability, why the movement of bridge pins in
cracked bridges is such a problem.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So I
understand why matching the termination points for both X and Y axis is
important at the bridge. What I don't understand is why it's not a consideration
at the opposite end of the string. And like I said, since this is a centuries
old practice it's obviously not a significant problem or else we would see X and
Y axis termination at both ends of the string. I'm just curious as to why it's
not a problem at the agraffe and capo bar end of the string.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>For a
better understanding of my question check out Reblitz page 113, <EM>"Ringing,
Jangling or False Beats in Treble Strings."</EM> I pulled out my copy, (2nd
ed), and looked this up and then posed my question here
because Reblitz just didn't address the effectiveness of the agraffe/capo
bar termination. Perhaps, as you suggest, it's because the counterbearing is so
severe that it's just not a problem. I'd just like to understand it a little
better. If that's possible.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>--
Geoff Sykes, Los Angeles</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=828223305-14012008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>David Love<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'Pianotech List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: String termination
question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Are you asking why
there aren’t pins at the capo bar (or agraffe)? Part of the reason there
are pins in the bridge is to keep the strings from moving sideways. The
relatively low bearing on the bridge (as compared with the counterbearing
angle for the agraffes or capo bar) combined with the bridge surface’s natural
lubricity would allow the strings to move side to side quite easily especially
as the bridge moves up and down. You don’t want that. You might
note, however, that on guitars and other stringed instruments, the strings are
not locked into place with vertical pins at the bridge and they don’t seem to
move. Anyway, the same problem doesn’t exist at the capo or agraffe
though leakage can occur where counterbearing angles are insufficient.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Changing lengths,
btw, will not necessarily cause an increase in Inharmonicity, rather a
difference between similar strings. Also, bass string do exhibit a
tolerance for different speaking lengths (and different winding lengths)
without causing problems with Inharmonicity as evidenced by the number of
pianos in which the bass bridge is not individually notched for each set of
unisons. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Of course, I’m not
sure if that’s what you are talking about.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">David Love</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"><BR>davidlovepianos@comcast.net<BR>www.davidlovepianos.com</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Geoff Sykes<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:05
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> '</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Pianotech List</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">'<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: String termination
question</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wim
--</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">BUT...
As I understand it, one of the important reasons for the X and Y axis to
terminate at exactly the same point, (at the bridge), is that if one axis
is different than the other then the string is essentially a different length
in one axis than the other. This increases inharmonicity and causes
conflicting partials in the two axis. This is a similar reason as to why
the windings on bass strings must be the same length and end at the same
distance from BOTH termination points. I understand that, among other
things, equal termination at the bridge equates to maximum transfer of
energy to the soundboard, but doesn't unequal termination at the agraffe or
capo bar cause distortion in the string waveform that not only increases
inharmonicity and unwanted conflicting partials but also a loss in overall
energy?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't
mean to start an argument. I'm really just interested in the mechanical logic
of this centuries old manufacturing practice. For all I know the contribution
of any errors at the agraffe or capo bar may be so insignificant as to be
unworthy of consideration. I'm just curious. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-- Geoff
Sykes, Los Angeles</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Willem Blees<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:22
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: String termination question</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Geoff</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As Annie
indicated, the string needs to go over the bridge for the vibrations to
transfer from the string to the soundboard. The string needs to be
seated at both sides of the bridge, so that the vibration is
transferred without interference. If the string is not seated, then
there will not be a solid transfer of the vibrating string. <BR><BR>See
what happens when you start thinking. <IMG height=19 alt=:
src="http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/33706/aol/en-us/images/aimex/cry.gif"
width=19 NOSEND="1" (?></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT<BR>Piano
Tuner/Technician<BR>Honolulu, HI<BR>Author of <BR>The Business of Piano
Tuning<BR>available from Potter
Press<BR>www.pianotuning.com</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Geoff
Sykes <thetuner@ivories52.com><BR>To: Pianotech@Ptg. Org
<pianotech@ptg.org><BR>Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 3:42 pm<BR>Subject:
String termination question</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_38a532cc-92b0-4bfd-a1c9-d8d0a04e3620>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Greetings All
--</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I made the mistake of thinking
the other day, and I started wondering why piano strings are terminated at
the bridge on both the X and Y axis but at the capo bar, or agraffe, on
only the X, (or perhaps that's Y depending on how you are looking at it),
axis. We go to lengths to make sure the strings are seated properly at the
bridge so that there is a definite and precise termination in both planes at
the bridge and bridge pin. Why then is the lack of termination in both
planes not a problem at the agraffe and capo bar end?
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-- Geoff Sykes, Los
Angeles</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_2_38a532cc-92b0-4bfd-a1c9-d8d0a04e3620 -->
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