<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16587" name=GENERATOR><o:SmartTagType name="Street" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="PostalCode" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="State" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="City" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="address" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="country-region" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="place" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType> <STYLE>  </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US vLink=blue link=blue bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>I fear the sharks ;>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Al</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: <A title=deanmay@pianorebuilders.com href="mailto:deanmay@pianorebuilders.com">Dean May</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">'Pianotech List'</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:45 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: RE: RC&S question in general Kent</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=Section1> Hello newbie!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Not unfounded attacks, vigorous discussions. The list remains amazingly civil considering the number of highly intelligent and opinionated people that it contains. Piano technicians after all can be among the most anal retentive obsessive compulsive of anyone you’ll ever meet. And most of them on this list are amazingly nice people, too! <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Jump in, the water’s fine. ;-)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> Dean<o:p></o:p> <U1:PERSONNAME u2:st="on">Dean May</U1:PERSONNAME>             cell 812.239.3359 <o:p></o:p> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 <o:p></o:p> <U1:PLACE u2:st="on"><U1:CITY u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><U3:PLACE u4:st="on"><U3:CITY u4:st="on">Terre Haute</st1:City></U3:PLACE></U1:CITY></U3:CITY> <U1:STATE u2:st="on"><st1:State u5:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">IN</st1:State></U1:STATE></st1:State>  <U1:POSTALCODE u2:st="on"><st1:PostalCode u6:st="on"><st1:PostalCode w:st="on">47802</st1:PostalCode></U1:POSTALCODE></st1:PostalCode></st1:place></U1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></DIV> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center> <HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2> </DIV> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of AlliedPianoCraft Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:48 PM To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Pianotech List</st1:PersonName> Subject: Re: RC&S question in general <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kent</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p></DIV> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> Ric, well said. You are a gentleman. I'm new to this list and I can't believe all the unfounded attacks going on here.<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> Al Guecia Allied PianoCraft <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">PO Box</st1:Street> 1549</st1:address> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">High Point</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">NC</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">27261</st1:PostalCode></st1:place> (336) 454-2000 <A href="mailto:PianoTech@alliedpianocraft.com">PianoTech@alliedpianocraft.com</A> <A href="http://www.alliedpianocraft.com">www.alliedpianocraft.com</A><o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> ----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p> <DIV> From: "Richard Brekne" <<A href="mailto:ricb@pianostemmer.no">ricb@pianostemmer.no</A>><o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> To: <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:12 PM<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> Subject: RC&S question in general <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kent</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <o:p> </o:p></DIV> > Hi <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kent</st1:place></st1:country-region>   > >    Your "bold faced fact" appears to be an opinion to me, an opinion >    based on your analysis of the available data and evidence. Others >    looking at the same data and evidence, myself included, might reach >    a different opinion. > >    Kent Swafford > > Of course we all have the right to draw whatever conclusions we want.  > But  lets back off from unnecessary extreme positions. These discussions > are supposed to enlighten us about how different  approaches function.  > The whole... <<which is better>> thing is nothing more then a > destructive side track.  Who is discouraging who in all this ?   > Disputing the validity of RC and CC methods is no more productive then > some of the discussion tactics just used... or throwing out presumably > lightly meant death threats. How does any of this answer any of the > questions on the table or provide deeper understanding into the various > methods different builders use and have used to build the instrument we > all love and have devoted our lives to servicing ? > > Take this residual crown bit as an example. The query was clearly > qualified as including two other known states... Rib dimensions and > amount of panel compression at glue up MC. Before going on please let me > point you to the following very short post from Ron Nossaman. > >    <A href="http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/2008-January/216274.html">http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/2008-January/216274.html</A> > > So I asked...given the aforementioned qualifying conditions  how much > compression a given downbearing will impart into the soundboard for a > given deflection... ie. for what ever target residual crown there is > after downbearing is applied. The post I just directed you to clearly > conflicts with the flurry of responses I got declaring that residual > crown is meaningless.  Despite going out of my way to re-underline the > conditions I set... which are perfectly inline with Rons post I linked > to above... I got the usual ration. Grin... and on top of that.. there > are actually exacting predetermined amounts of this same residual crown > calculated on when designing and RC&S board for any given scale. Its > nearly half of the whole design approach ! > > Now where is the constructive learning spirit in all this ? What ends > are served ? > > I'd restate my question... but it seems like really no one knows how to > figure how much compression is imparted to a panel for a given > downbearing with known starting values for rib strength and orientation > and panel compression for a constant RH.    And if THAT be the case... > then how on earth can we be certain of just how much compression is in > an RC&S panel when loaded ? Those ribs are stiff suckers... downbearing > forces compression in the panel as it strains against the ribs.... its a > fair question. > > Why don't we drop all this judgmental stuff and get down to what this > list is supposed to be about.  I'm just asking questions I want straight > and respectful answers too.  Is that such a problem ? > > Cheers > RicB > > >    On Jan 28, 2008 1:55 AM, Richard Brekne <ricb at pianostemmer.no> wrote: > >     The fact is...and this is a bold faced fact... that experienced >    manufacturers have been building boards of all types for 300 >    years... and there is no statistical grounds for doubting  the >    viability of any of the basic methods employed (when done so >    appropriately) today . > ><o:p></o:p></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>