<html> <body> At 06:13 PM 2/8/2008, William Monroe wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""> Israel,   I just have to chime in here.  Comments interspersed.     > > Actually, David, wrong on all counts. No handouts, no sheets, no > lists in my classes. They learn by doing - you get an action model > and you learn how to regulate by regulating. I give them a short > verbal introduction  What typically happens is that I explain to them > the various stages - and most everyone (except for the rawest > beginners - the class is not aimed at them)  can right away tell me > themselves what functions are dealt with in each stage. It's just > logic - don't need a list.   If it is "just logic," I fail to see how an outline or "list" can be an impediment for all but those same "rawest beginners."</blockquote> Often it is. One of the more effective learning processes is "discovery". Following a list often channels one's mind into just doing things by rote without thinking it through. I've had people thank me for  making them work without a list - because the other way they just weren't getting it,  they were just following things step by step and not getting much out of it. But "discovering" something on their own (perhaps with some prompting) somehow "turns on the light". Like some people posted here before - there are different ways to learn. What works for one, doesn't work for the other. I am not going to bother to go through the rest of your message point by point - because much of what you say is true - sometimes. And sometimes it doesn't quite work out that way. And there is no point arguing about it - because all we are talking about is just alternative perspectives which may or may not be useful for different people. I was asked about what I felt was a better conceptual system - and so I shared it. It happens to work quite well with people who have not done well with the type of conceptualization embodied in the Yamaha 37 steps (with which I am quite familiar - and yes I have been to LaRoy's classes).  I have never denied its value - I just feel that some people do not get all that is being taught for reasons that I have stated and I have devised a way to make explicit what is implicit in the Yamaha system. And - guess what - some people have used it to become skilled and competent technicians. So whoever said that "whoever can't figure out what the Yamaha way really means probably is never going to be a skilled technician" (or something to that effect - I am not going to dig through all these digests again to find it) is all wet. Sometimes a change of perspective can do wonders to someone's understanding. So all you Yamaha-37 fans - if it works, use it. And if it doesn't work for someone - there are other ways. Israel Stein </body> </html>