<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m = "http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal-reply } MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=#d8d0c8> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Well said Terry.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Al Guecia</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 18, 2008 9:54 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Whole room humidity control better than Dampp Chaser. ( Right?)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have a very firm opinion that whole room/house/institution humidity control is superior to a standard DC installation, or even a DC installation with bottom and string covers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Now hold the phone before you clobber me - let me explain! I am also of the opinion that a good DC installation can be very effective for tuning stability and instrument longevity. I have a good DC dehumidifier installation on my personal grand piano at home and the piano pitch and tunigns are rock solid. The better the instrument is isolated from the room, the better the DC can perform (undercover, string cover, and better yet, a nice quilted cover with long sides for the entire piano - that is used whenever the piano is not being played).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>That being said, let's address whole room/house/institution humidity control (let me use an acronym - my typing fingers are getting tired - WRHC). IMHO, the key word in this title is "CONTROL". Mist being sprayed onto a piano is humidity OUT OF CONTROL. A humidity source with no regulation is humidity OUT OF CONTROL. A room with a humidity source that is open to other rooms, even if the humidity source is regulated, likely is humidity OUT OF CONTROL. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>A room with a Sears dehumidifier with a tank that is not emptied or does not have a functioning drain for water discharge or a room with some crude humidity source and likely an even more crude regulatory device (if any such device at all) is humidity OUT OF CONTROL. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>From a practical standpoint, I agree that in many, if not most, situations, a good DC installation will offer superior performance to "whole room humidity control", but again that is because most WRHC installations are poor at best - and not because HVAC is inherently inferior.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Now consider a "proper" WRHC - and really, I think in most cases, this would be the entire facility - be it an institution or a home. Most proper systems would be automatic. I'm no HVAC expert, but I know it requires proper sealing of the building, proper insulation, proper air movement, proper regulation, etc., etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Or, if one is able and willing to manually control humidity levels, it can be done. I keep my shop between about 48% and 58% relative humidity 365 days per year. I use a small basement-type dehumidifier, my wall AC unit, and an accurate relative humidity gauge to manually regulate humidity. If find that here in Florida I don't need to ever add water to my shop environment. If I were located elsewhere, obviously things would become more complicated and perhaps impractical to do manually.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Several examples of proper WRHC would be a good museum (perhaps like the one that houses one of Christifori's pianos), a modern home with a central HVAC system that also has a good regulated dehumidifier and humidifier integral to the system, or something simple like my shop. IMHO, all three of these examples would offer superior environmental control compared to a good DC installation. Now again, I realize that most WRHC installations are crude and ineffective (or even destructive), but to categorically reject WRHC as inferior to a DC installation is, IMHO, incorrect (exercising restraint here).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>It's like morphine. Used in a controlled, intelligent (properly regulated) manner, it can be extremely beneficial. Used in an uncontrolled manner, it can be deadly. But to categorically reject its use would be, IMHO, well, you get the idea......</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Nuff said.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV>My (anecdotal) observation is that a standard DC installation on a grand will not promote oxidation of steel strings and copper windings, while usage of a room humidifier often will result in rapid accumulation of rust & dull brown copper windings. If customers are inclined to use a room humidifier I urge them to keep the lid closed when not in use. Customers sometimes blast the mist right into the piano -- sigh -- they think they're "doing the right thing."</DIV> <DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV> <DIV>Patrick Draine</DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV class=gmail_quote>On Feb 18, 2008 12:36 AM, Greg Newell <<A href="mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net">gnewell@ameritech.net</A>> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue"> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 15px; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> I believe that it's even a bit of a stretch to claim that it helps to prevent rusty strings in a grand as the pictures would seems to indicate. </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Cy, the DC unit can't physically put out enough moisture to control the humidity a room, the action or the pin block. If it did, I wouldn't have read 15% humidity in the room when I tuned the piano. As I wrote before, after 6 week the humidity in the room was up to 40% and the pinblock was back to normal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>A church is another story. Congregation enters, humidity goes sky high. Congregation departs humidity drops. That is the one place I *would* use a DC unit. I would also add a string and undercover. That's the only way you have some control in a church of keeping a piano in tune. You then just hope for the best for the action and pinblock.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Al Guecia</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>What is the difference between a DC humidifier in a piano, and a room humidifier sitting even farther away from the action cavity?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If a gallon of water a week disappears into the air, it doesn't matter whether it's from a box sitting on the floor or one hanging under the piano.  Humid air from a DC gets into the action cavity the same way dry air gets in there without a DC.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Sure, whole room humidity control is great, and there are all kinds of special situations (like the church I had that was built *over* a stream), but it's inconsistent to argue that DC moisture can't enter the action cavity, but humid air from a ceiling vent can.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>--Cy--</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>ABQ, NM</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV class=Section1> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">                I agree that DC units do not address the pin block in a grand piano. Have you also noticed that the brochure seems to suggest that it controls humidity in the action cavity as well? I believe that it�s even a bit of a stretch to claim that it helps to prevent rusty strings in a grand as the pictures would seems to indicate. Perhaps that�s different with string covers but that�s not stated. I wish the pictures would be re-taken showing upright keys, actions, strings and pin block drawings. It sure would save a lot of time I spend in educating my customers.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Greg Newell</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>